This may very well be my ineffective ability to find relevant passages and my newness to DMing, but if I understand it correctly, an NPC with two class levels would be CR 2, and thus supposedly a challenge for a party of 4 level 1 characters? That... doesn't seem right at all. Am I missing something with this? Is this somewhere where CR rating just doesn't cut it?
Class levels and CR.
- Thread starter Theroc
- Start date
anest1s
First Post
If I understand correctly, yes. A NPC with 2 levels on a PC class would be CR2, while a NPC with a NPC class of the same level, would be CR1.
A level 1 Wizard can bring down the whole party with a simple sleep spell...assuming he's lucky
Also, check EL rules to see if the party can handle it.
A level 1 Wizard can bring down the whole party with a simple sleep spell...assuming he's lucky
Also, check EL rules to see if the party can handle it.
Starbuck_II
Explorer
A Challenge doesn't mean a hard fight.
You are expected to be able to handle (4 battles of CR = to Party level)/each day
You only use up on average 20% of parties stuff (hps, total spells, etc); basically a speed bump.
If you want a harder battle you want a harder CR, but the party can't handle more than 2-3 of those (depending on CR +X you are improving it).
CR +1-4 is a very difficult (hard fight), good chance to seriously wound if not kill party.
CR +5 or more is overpowering: definately a death, party can handle 1 each day at most but lose someone as same time.
Anyways, single Monsters are rarely a challenge because they are 4 party member actions to 1 enemy. Page 49 DMG makes that clear (very swingy).
krupintupple
First Post
yeah, you've pretty much got it. as mentioned, PC classes are always a CR above the NPC classes. also, some races in specific - like the kobold - get an additional hit to their CR cause of their kobold-ness.
but anyhow:
3rd level human fighter = CR3
3rd level human warrior = CR2
but anyhow:
3rd level human fighter = CR3
3rd level human warrior = CR2
HoboGod
First Post
Keep in mind that the CR system is designed to keep battles quick and relatively safe for the PCs. Sure, a party of 4 level 1 players could probably beat a level 2 barbarian with no problem, but that one barbarian could likely kill a player in one hit. Let's say it's using a 1d12 Great Axe and has +3 Strength. With weapon focus, that barbarian hits AC 16 half the time, which some level 1 PCs would be lucky to have. It deals about 10 damage, which would reduce any level 1 PC to less than half health, so it's important for that barbarian to die before striking again. If the barbarian gets a critical hit, that x3 multiplier will outright KILL the PC that barbarian targets, so it's also important that the players have a chance to kill the barbarian before it gets to
attack in the first place.
Also keep in mind, a CR 2 pitted against a first level party is not a common place. Many modules and premade adventures intended for level 1 tend to throw something like 6 CR 1/3 creatures for that kind of challenge, like a pack of wild dogs.
One final note, it's NEVER advisable to send a challenge that relies on class levels unless they outnumber the PCs or the challenge relies on spells. Many equivalent level monsters designed to solo PCs have multiple attacks and better hit points as to make up for the disadvantage of having fewer actions.
attack in the first place.
Also keep in mind, a CR 2 pitted against a first level party is not a common place. Many modules and premade adventures intended for level 1 tend to throw something like 6 CR 1/3 creatures for that kind of challenge, like a pack of wild dogs.
One final note, it's NEVER advisable to send a challenge that relies on class levels unless they outnumber the PCs or the challenge relies on spells. Many equivalent level monsters designed to solo PCs have multiple attacks and better hit points as to make up for the disadvantage of having fewer actions.
So, NPC's with class levels can't challenge the party alone? Hm... The party I'm running took out an Ankheg with minimal trouble. (The entire party took a total of 20 damage(they lined up for the acid spit right before tearing him to pieces) within like, 3 rounds.
I was trying to think of something to be a bit more challenging. (These fights take place in a gladitorial arena format, so they are generally at 100% resources when these encounters take place).
So, it'd be best to throw multiple weaker creatures at the party, I suppose?
frankthedm
First Post
NPCs have custom gear to help with challenging PCs. Probably will need to be potion junkies. 
. http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/196511-outfitting-monster-cr-hd-ecl.html
. http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/196511-outfitting-monster-cr-hd-ecl.html
Yes. NPCs tend to be behind the curve for challenge rating, much like how dragons are above the curve for their challenge rating.
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Starbuck_II
Explorer
Well, one equal and a few weaker work too.
Oh, so you are doing 1 battle a day?
Than it alright to do a very difficulty fight.
So that Ankheg (CR 3) could be accompanied by 2-3 Small Earth Elementals (CR 1). Similar theme burrowers.
If you wanted a lone battle creature: try a dragon they are better made to solo the party (more so when older than wyrmling).
You can always take advantage of non-associated class rule to get more bang for your buck. For example, instead of a human cleric2 npc (cr2), go with a gnoll cleric2 (also cr2, as clerics lvs would be considered non-associated.
If case you want to denounce this as blatant cheating, note that wotc endorses such a move themselves.
Design & Development: Gnoll Limits: Adventure Design, Part 2
If case you want to denounce this as blatant cheating, note that wotc endorses such a move themselves.
Design & Development: Gnoll Limits: Adventure Design, Part 2
It's also important to remember that monsters with class levels get to use the elite array for abilites (and potentially ability increases for their class levels). Combined with the better equipment that can give them quite a boost.
]) is to add a single level in an npc class:
human fighter 3 = CR3
human warrior 1 / fighter 3 = CR3 (well, actually it would be CR3.5, but it gets rounded down)
Also remember the general rule of always rounding down when applying non-associated levels:
Monsters with an odd number of HD basically get their last non-associated class level for free
Another neat trick (that some might consider cheating [if a DM could cheat
]) is to add a single level in an npc class:human fighter 3 = CR3
human warrior 1 / fighter 3 = CR3 (well, actually it would be CR3.5, but it gets rounded down)
Also remember the general rule of always rounding down when applying non-associated levels:
Monsters with an odd number of HD basically get their last non-associated class level for free
