Class Mechanics: Which Race is best?

Votan

Explorer
In another thread, the question was raised as to why nobody plays Half-Elves anymore. One explanation could be that (for general builds) other races tend to have mechanical advantages. Now mechanics are certainly not everything, but it doens't help when other races are better at everything.

Consider which race is the best for the 11 core classes (as well as close contenders). Note that for prestige classes, human have a permanent advantage because they can meet prerequisites much easier [feats and skill ranks]. Also note that I assume that races will pump up stats at the same rate so a +2 strength advantage is always there. It might be Str 17 vs Str 15 at 1st level becoming Str 32 vs. 30 at 18th but it should still be there; all things being equal.

Barbarian: Half Orc. Darkvision, speed, +2 str and penalties to unimportant stats. The key thing for this class is to hit hard and kill things before they hit you. It's worth the pain of the Half-Orc to gain this extra power on the alpha strike.

But I'd be sympathetic to arguments that dwarves are tough.

Bard: Gnome. Spell DC's on key spell group. Con bonus. Str penalty is minor. Keen senses in listen synergize with lsiten as a class skill. AC and attack bonus for being small also pay off for a ranged attacker.

Cleric: Dwarf. No speed penalty in armor, combat bonuses that enhance your melee ability, and you get a Con bonus which helps everybody. Who would not go this way?

Close contender: Human. If you want to base your cleric on a decent charisma, noticing the way that clerics are feat starved makes this an alternative.

Druid: Gnome. Post errata Con has become very important. wildshape can take care of speed if needed and a riding dog was always the best animal companion mechanically anyway. If you need strength, become a bear.

Close Contender: Human. With a strong skill list and the need for feats this isn't a bad alternative. Pre-Errata it used to be Elf for the weapons as Archery was a nice back-up for the class.

Fighter: Dwarf (no doubt). Saving throw bonuses vs. Spells (never gets old at any level as +2 is still sueful at 20th level). Combat bonuses. Con bonuses. Fighters already have lots of feats and a weak skill list.

Monk: Dwarf. Cha is almost meaningless, combat bonuses are nice, improving saves further means the monk never fails, speed won't matter as monk rapidly speeds up and the Con bonus is a major advantage given Monk hit points and the need to invest in a lot of different ability scores.

Paladin: Human (no doubt). No class (especially with supplements) requires feats so badly. Need to be strong in lots of areas works well with a skill point bonus (you can reduce INT). Dwarf doesn't work as well due to CHA penalty.

Ranger: It depends.

Human if archery specialist. Precise Shot is almost required for a goood archer and this si the only way to get it wothout waiting until 3rd level or multi-classing.

Dwarf if Two weapon specialist. You need con to survive in melee without heavy armor or a shield. You can't flank like a rogue so being as tough as possible is simply a requirement. The other dwarf advantages (like darkvision) also apply.

Rogue: [Tie]

Elf. Bonuses to skills and ability to find secret portals is just too good. Add in some nice weapon proficiencies that a medium size rogue appreciates and some decent bonuses to senses.

Halfling. Save bonus for a class with weak savings throws. Size works well with hiding and stealth. Broad range of skill bonuses. Thrown weapons are just gravy and +1 to hit at any level is useful when throwing a dagger for a ranged sneak attack while opponents are flat footed.

Sorcerer: Human. This class depends on the creative use of magic and you have few dump stats. You need several skills and the bonus helps alot (bluff, concentration, know[arcane] and spellcraft come immmediately to mind).

Wizard: Gnome (no contest). Con bonuses. Size bonuses. Illusion spell DC boost is useful unless illusion is a banned school. Str penalty doesn't matter. Bonus wizard feats make building up feats less critical and INT as casting attribute make skills points freely available.


Some of these choices could definitely be debated. However, the failure for Half-elf to show up anywhere as a serious contender for the best choice is certainly fascinating. The closest I could come is niche bard builds where every point of diplomacy matters and it's worth suffering penalties to get them.

Notice, as well, with every melee class, except for Paladin, the dwarf is the MVP -- being either the best choice or a close contender. They are only a bad choice for rogues and other skill experts . . .
 
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Votan said:
Barbarian: Half Orc. Darkvision, speed, +2 str and penalties to unimportant stats. The key thing for this class is to hit hard and kill things before they hit you. It's worth the pain of the Half-Orc to gain this extra power on the alpha strike.

But I'd be sympathetic to arguments that dwarves are tough.

Bard: Gnome. Spell DC's on key spell group. Con bonus. Str penalty is minor. Keen senses in listen synergize with lsiten as a class skill. AC and attack bonus for being small also pay off for a ranged attacker.

Cleric: Dwarf. No speed penalty in armor, combat bonuses that enhance your melee ability, and you get a Con bonus which helps everybody. Who would not go this way?

Close contender: Human. If you want to base your cleric on a decent charisma, noticing the way that clerics are feat starved makes this an alternative.


I'd go human cleric. Charisma isn't all that important (since turn undead really sucks after a few levels) but the feat makes it all worthwhile, IMO.

Druid: Gnome. Post errata Con has become very important. wildshape can take care of speed if needed and a riding dog was always the best animal companion mechanically anyway. If you need strength, become a bear.

Agreed.

Fighter: Dwarf (no doubt). Saving throw bonuses vs. Spells (never gets old at any level as +2 is still sueful at 20th level). Combat bonuses. Con bonuses. Fighters already have lots of feats and a weak skill list.

Agreed for heavy fighter (strongest fighter concept).

Monk: Dwarf. Cha is almost meaningless, combat bonuses are nice, improving saves further means the monk never fails, speed won't matter as monk rapidly speeds up and the Con bonus is a major advantage given Monk hit points and the need to invest in a lot of different ability scores.

Disagree. Human. -10 feet is bad, especially at the lower levels. Also, anything that gives the monk extra feats can't hurt. I would suggest spending a feat on Weapon Focus. Finally, from a flavor PoV, I think dwarves are too "dumpy" to make serious monks.

Paladin: Human (no doubt). No class (especially with supplements) requires feats so badly. Need to be strong in lots of areas works well with a skill point bonus (you can reduce INT). Dwarf doesn't work as well due to CHA penalty.

Agreed.

Ranger: It depends.

Human if archery specialist. Precise Shot is almost required for a goood archer and this si the only way to get it wothout waiting until 3rd level or multi-classing.

Agreed.

Dwarf if Two weapon specialist. You need con to survive in melee without heavy armor or a shield. You can't flank like a rogue so being as tough as possible is simply a requirement. The other dwarf advantages (like darkvision) also apply.

Disagree. I'd still say human. The speed penalty is a killer. You need to get to your opponent fast so you can full-round them. It's not useful if it takes you an extra round, costing you attacks. I don't think darkvision is all that useful for a scouting class, either - I would hate to be able to see only 60 feet away. Low light vision is much more useful, not that humans have access to it.

Rogue: [Tie]

Elf. Bonuses to skills and ability to find secret portals is just too good. Add in some nice weapon proficiencies that a medium size rogue appreciates and some decent bonuses to senses.

Halfling. Save bonus for a class with weak savings throws. Size works well with hiding and stealth. Broad range of skill bonuses. Thrown weapons are just gravy and +1 to hit at any level is useful when throwing a dagger for a ranged sneak attack while opponents are flat footed.

I fully agree with the halfling, but not the elf. Rogues don't get that many hit points, and I don't think the effective +1 damage bonus from being proficient with the longbow is worth it. I think the half-elf is actually the winner from this one. You often can't use sneak attack in the dark, ironically, because of concealment, but low light vision is useful for that. You can also see further with low light vision than darkvision.

Honestly, I think the best race is goblin, but I know it's not iconic :) While darkvision isn't so great for scouting, it is wonderful for sneak attacks. Small size and 30 feet? Cool!

Sorcerer: Human. This class depends on the creative use of magic and you have few dump stats. You need several skills and the bonus helps alot (bluff, concentration, know[arcane] and spellcraft come immmediately to mind).

Don't gorget to cross-class Escape Artist and Tumble - it's a good thing humans get extra skill points.

Or halfling. It gives you a needed save bonus and small size, but it does hurt your speed.

Wizard: Gnome (no contest). Con bonuses. Size bonuses. Illusion spell DC boost is useful unless illusion is a banned school. Str penalty doesn't matter. Bonus wizard feats make building up feats less critical and INT as casting attribute make skills points freely available.

Agreed.

So, IMO, half-elves make good rogues, but it's only because they get low-light vision with no stat mods.
 

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
I'd go human cleric. Charisma isn't all that important (since turn undead really sucks after a few levels) but the feat makes it all worthwhile, IMO.

RE: Cleric: I don't know. I can see the argument here (it was my close contender) but the Dwarf really does bring a lot of nice bonuses. One feat, if cleverly picked can be better but +2 on all spells and +2 CON are both worth more than a feat. It's actually the skill points (clerics have a surprisingly good list) that brought the human so close in my view.


Disagree. Human. -10 feet is bad, especially at the lower levels. Also, anything that gives the monk extra feats can't hurt. I would suggest spending a feat on Weapon Focus. Finally, from a flavor PoV, I think dwarves are too "dumpy" to make serious monks.

RE: Monk: Well, I was deliberately focusing on mechanics and not flavor. My favorite characters have all been elves despite clearly being mechanically second rate.

By 3rd level the speed penalty is greatly recduced, by 6th level the Monk is as fast as a human barbarian and by 9th level it's unimportant. Still, I have sympathy for the argument about speed for a class that might be using tumble alot. :\

Disagree. I'd still say human. The speed penalty is a killer. You need to get to your opponent fast so you can full-round them. It's not useful if it takes you an extra round, costing you attacks. I don't think darkvision is all that useful for a scouting class, either - I would hate to be able to see only 60 feet away. Low light vision is much more useful, not that humans have access to it.

RE: 2WF Ranger: well, it's a mechanically inferior option to begin with so it's probably unsurpising that it synergizes poorly with nearly everything. ;) It is a brutal trade but, honestly, nothing in the Ranger has charisma synergy of any kind. Con bonuses, saving throw bonuses and stability bonuses are all nice and Darkvision, while not superb in range, works always which doens't hurt.

Still, I can see the argument for human here if the speed issue is seen as critical.

I fully agree with the halfling, but not the elf. Rogues don't get that many hit points, and I don't think the effective +1 damage bonus from being proficient with the longbow is worth it. I think the half-elf is actually the winner from this one. You often can't use sneak attack in the dark, ironically, because of concealment, but low light vision is useful for that. You can also see further with low light vision than darkvision.

Honestly, I think the best race is goblin, but I know it's not iconic :) While darkvision isn't so great for scouting, it is wonderful for sneak attacks. Small size and 30 feet? Cool!

RE: Rogue: Agree with the goblin. Half Elf isn't dreadful but a gnome also has low light vision so if this is the key element for the decision then I'd be tempted to explore gnome.

With the elf, the better sense bonuses seem to apply more often than gather information and diplomacy.

Don't gorget to cross-class Escape Artist and Tumble - it's a good thing humans get extra skill points.

Or halfling. It gives you a needed save bonus and small size, but it does hurt your speed.

RE: Sorcerer. Good points.


So, IMO, half-elves make good rogues, but it's only because they get low-light vision with no stat mods.

:) Okay, a we disagree on the Half-elf but I can see the point.

Of course, your analysis leaves the elf as the race with no obvious "best role".
 

Cleric: Dwarf. No speed penalty in armor, combat bonuses that enhance your melee ability, and you get a Con bonus which helps everybody. Who would not go this way?

In that light I'd have to say gnome? Gnomes get the same +2 con as dwarves. But dwarves get -2 cha and gnomes get -2 str. I'd say the str is less important to clerics than charisma especially in undead-heavy campaigns.
Now you might argue dwarves get + vs spells and poison. But gnomes get the small bonuses which means +1 AC and +1 to hit (nullifying most of the -2 str except weight and skill issues) and they also get a few other nifty bonuses and innate spells to mess around with.

Now I also find human a good option for a cleric, but in my opinion gnome beats dwarf on cleric big time.

Other than that I roughly agree, except for the monk dwarf that should probably be human for me. So all in all dwarf is good only for heavy fighter and roleplay purposes :P

Erky
 

Votan said:
Half Elf isn't dreadful but a gnome also has low light vision so if this is the key element for the decision then I'd be tempted to explore gnome.

Really it was the combo of low-light vision and speed :) I think a small rogue (except goblins) play so differently from medium rogues that you can't really compare them anyway.

Compared to human and elf, the half-elf is better than the elf when it comes to being a rogue (IMO), mainly due to the lack of Con penalty. The difference between human and half-elf boils down to low-light vision.

Erky said:
In that light I'd have to say gnome? Gnomes get the same +2 con as dwarves. But dwarves get -2 cha and gnomes get -2 str. I'd say the str is less important to clerics than charisma especially in undead-heavy campaigns.
Now you might argue dwarves get + vs spells and poison. But gnomes get the small bonuses which means +1 AC and +1 to hit (nullifying most of the -2 str except weight and skill issues) and they also get a few other nifty bonuses and innate spells to mess around with.

Now I also find human a good option for a cleric, but in my opinion gnome beats dwarf on cleric big time.

Other than that I roughly agree, except for the monk dwarf that should probably be human for me. So all in all dwarf is good only for heavy fighter and roleplay purposes :P

Erky

From my PoV, you don't want to be a small cleric. Medium clerics can wear full plate at 20 feet and can use buffing spells a lot better.
 

If we're using the MM here, don't forget the Grey Elf for Wizard. The Grey Elf has -2 Str and +2 Int in addition to +2 Dex -2 Con. If you're playing Point Buy, you can see an interesting phenomenon--A GM asked me to play an Elf character for flavour purposes, and I asked to play a Grey Elf. When I was allowed to retool to a Grey Elf, my Strength actually went up. Particularly in Point Buy where you are burned badly for trying to max out a key stat, Grey Elf can be used by Wizards to get their Int to a tolerable 16 without paying extra and then spend the rest of the points on beefing Con, with a bit of Dex thrown in as an added benefit. When rolling, it can take a high roll (As 4d6 drop tends to produce at least one 16) and make it into an excellent Int. Gnomes are useful little buggers, but don't underestimate the annoyance of being grappled as a Wizard--my Archivist in Shackled City was closest to death against the stupid Grell in Life's Bazaar, moreso than facing the final encounter.
 

I would argue that Half-Orcs make good monks. The medium BAB (and at earlier levels, the flurry penalty to hit) mean that every point you can squeeze into being able to hit better matters, and this is where str comes in (the extra damage is gravy, but note that, unlike light weapons with TWF, the extra str damage applies in full to every attack in the flurry).

I disagree with half-elf rogues. If you are playing the "sneak close enough for me to see them but not for them to see me" game then you are not a combat rogue and Con is not relevant, and then elves are better than half-elves. If you are playing the combat rogue, then darkvision helps, but after one round of combat (for missle weapons) lowlight vision does not, because the rogue will be flanking or will be doing piddly, non-sneak attack damage. In that case, you either go for darkvision (dwarf) or go for the extra skill points and feat (human). And odd as it is to say for the class that gets the most skill points, but I find you can never have too many skill points for the rogue, so that favors humans too.
 

While I agree that the half-elf doesn't have a fantastic role, there are a few that it can be good at, such as:

Bard. Not quite as good as Gnomes, even a bit behind humans, but half-elves *do* get those nice racial bonuses on Diplomacy and Gather Information, which are usually a Bard's forte. They're also quicker than Gnomes and have low-light vision over humans; maybe not worth it, but certainly not to be forgotten.

Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian. Ok, I know a few eyebrows raised, but if you play a light, skirmisher-type fighter, the half-elf can find a niche. They have low-light vision and bonuses against enchantments, both of which can help, and they don't suffer a Constitution penalty, reduced weapon damage, or a drop in speed. You could argue that the half-orc fills the niche even better, with his +2 Strength and Darkvision, but the -2 Intelligence hurts in the skill points, so there could be benefits to the half-elf.

You could make the half-elf rogue arguement, but elves tend to be better at that, especially if you can squeeze out a decent Constitution score. If you're planning on going fighter/rogue and being right in the heart of melee, however, a half-elf can find his place; you have plenty of feats (from the fighter levels) and skill points (from the rogue levels), and you don't suffer a multiclass XP penalty. In fact, any multiclass build deserves at least some half-elf consideration - that is one of their few big benefits.

As for the Dwarf being MVP - he is, especially if he's wearing medium or heavy armor. Heck, even a Paladin is worth consideration, despite the Charisma penalty; their bonuses are just too good to ignore. The current house rule in my group is to drop the Charisma penalty and give them -2 to their Dexterity instead, so that they don't fill every niche quite as well. It still makes dwarven bards rare, decreases rogues and monks, hurts wizards a tad, decreases rangers and barbarians... but helps dwarven clerics and paladins, which are two classes that I think should have good dwarven representation.
 

Particle_Man said:
I would argue that Half-Orcs make good monks. The medium BAB (and at earlier levels, the flurry penalty to hit) mean that every point you can squeeze into being able to hit better matters, and this is where str comes in (the extra damage is gravy, but note that, unlike light weapons with TWF, the extra str damage applies in full to every attack in the flurry).

It's a tough choice. Monks have a good skill list and use for their skills. But you cna avoid skills and still make a decent Monk and strength never serves a Monk poorly. it is a tough call.
 

What about the other base classes? Marshal, Healer, Swashbuckler, Hexblade, Samurai, Ninja, Scout, Spellthief, Wu Jen, Warlock, Warmage, Favoured Soul, Shukenja, Spirit Shaman, Knight, Dragon Shaman, Duskblade and Beguiler?

Maybe there is room for a half-elf to be best at one of these?
 

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