Class Mechanics: Which Race is best?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I disagree with half-elf rogues. If you are playing the "sneak close enough for me to see them but not for them to see me" game then you are not a combat rogue and Con is not relevant, and then elves are better than half-elves.

That wasn't part of the argument. You can't sneak attack if your opponent has concealment. Darkness can give an opponent concealment.

If you are playing the combat rogue, then darkvision helps, but after one round of combat (for missle weapons) lowlight vision does not, because the rogue will be flanking

Concealment may still apply, hence no sneak attack.

 

[FalcWP]

The reason half-elves usually aren't the best at anything is because of their bonuses.

Elves get the low-light vision, immunity to sleep spells, +2 against enchantments, and better bonuses on listen, search, and spot.

Humans get to have any class as their favored one.

Humans, Elves, and Half-Orcs all have 30 feet of movement.

So the only unique bonus half-elves get are on Diplomacy and Gather Information. And, of course, the combination of low-light vision and +2 against enchantments without an ability score penalty and any favored class, if that happens to be handy.

However, no class requires Diplomacy and Gather information to power its big abilities. Most people would rather have an extra feat and extra skill point per level than low-light vision (which can be taken care of with magic or magic items). The bonuses on Diplomacy, Gather Information, Listen, Seach, and Spot can all be taken care of with the extra skill points. And Iron Will as the bonus feat is worth more than just +2 against Enchantments.

 

[Seeten]

In another thread, the question was raised as to why nobody plays Half-Elves anymore. One explanation could be that (for general builds) other races tend to have mechanical advantages. Now mechanics are certainly not everything, but it doens't help when other races are better at everything.

Consider which race is the best for the 11 core classes (as well as close contenders). Note that for prestige classes, human have a permanent advantage because they can meet prerequisites much easier [feats and skill ranks]. Also note that I assume that races will pump up stats at the same rate so a +2 strength advantage is always there. It might be Str 17 vs Str 15 at 1st level becoming Str 32 vs. 30 at 18th but it should still be there; all things being equal.

Barbarian: Half Orc. Darkvision, speed, +2 str and penalties to unimportant stats. The key thing for this class is to hit hard and kill things before they hit you. It's worth the pain of the Half-Orc to gain this extra power on the alpha strike.

But I'd be sympathetic to arguments that dwarves are tough.

I agree with Half-Orc, although Full Orc is even better. Dwarves are also very good here, as are Humans, not surprisingly.

Bard: Gnome. Spell DC's on key spell group. Con bonus. Str penalty is minor. Keen senses in listen synergize with lsiten as a class skill. AC and attack bonus for being small also pay off for a ranged attacker.

Agreed.

Cleric: Dwarf. No speed penalty in armor, combat bonuses that enhance your melee ability, and you get a Con bonus which helps everybody. Who would not go this way?

Close contender: Human. If you want to base your cleric on a decent charisma, noticing the way that clerics are feat starved makes this an alternative.

Disagree, and also disagree that Turn undead is not a good mechanic. Many excellent Divine Feats make great use of turns even for campaigns that dont use Undead, and if undead do show up, Turning is very powerful. Further, Divine Metamagic is broken, and is powered by Charisma, and Dwarves are not good at that at all. So Humans. For sure.

Druid: Gnome. Post errata Con has become very important. wildshape can take care of speed if needed and a riding dog was always the best animal companion mechanically anyway. If you need strength, become a bear.

Close Contender: Human. With a strong skill list and the need for feats this isn't a bad alternative. Pre-Errata it used to be Elf for the weapons as Archery was a nice back-up for the class.

Agreed.

Fighter: Dwarf (no doubt). Saving throw bonuses vs. Spells (never gets old at any level as +2 is still sueful at 20th level). Combat bonuses. Con bonuses. Fighters already have lots of feats and a weak skill list.

Absolutely. Also important to note, Dwarf PrC's are the strongest PrC's in the game, IMO. Dwarven Defender, and some of the RoS classes are very powerful and only dwarves get in. Half-Orcs and Orcs are also good here.

Monk: Dwarf. Cha is almost meaningless, combat bonuses are nice, improving saves further means the monk never fails, speed won't matter as monk rapidly speeds up and the Con bonus is a major advantage given Monk hit points and the need to invest in a lot of different ability scores.

I have never even considered a Dwarf Monk, but you make good points. I like Human for monks but your argument here is convincing.

Paladin: Human (no doubt). No class (especially with supplements) requires feats so badly. Need to be strong in lots of areas works well with a skill point bonus (you can reduce INT). Dwarf doesn't work as well due to CHA penalty.

Gimme human Paladins every time. Not only do you need the cha(why dont half-elves have a cha bonus? Drop the diplo and the gather info bonuses and give a cha bonus, and they would be SO there) but you need the feats desperately.

Ranger: It depends.

Human if archery specialist. Precise Shot is almost required for a goood archer and this si the only way to get it wothout waiting until 3rd level or multi-classing.

Dwarf if Two weapon specialist. You need con to survive in melee without heavy armor or a shield. You can't flank like a rogue so being as tough as possible is simply a requirement. The other dwarf advantages (like darkvision) also apply.

Agreed.

Rogue: [Tie]

Elf. Bonuses to skills and ability to find secret portals is just too good. Add in some nice weapon proficiencies that a medium size rogue appreciates and some decent bonuses to senses.

Halfling. Save bonus for a class with weak savings throws. Size works well with hiding and stealth. Broad range of skill bonuses. Thrown weapons are just gravy and +1 to hit at any level is useful when throwing a dagger for a ranged sneak attack while opponents are flat footed.

I agree here. Unlike the previous poster who disliked the -2 con, I'll use my point buy, or whatnot to give me a +1 or +2/level. Its enough as a rogue, assuming you dont try to go toe to toe. The +2 dex helps you to not get hit often, in addition. The search, the listen, the spot is all fantastic. Half-elf is a poor man's substitute for the elf.

Sorcerer: Human. This class depends on the creative use of magic and you have few dump stats. You need several skills and the bonus helps alot (bluff, concentration, know[arcane] and spellcraft come immmediately to mind).

Totally agree. Human Sorc's always. Too many good feats. Also, no phb races have +cha, which makes humans the de facto winner of all cha classes, imo, barring massive other advantages.

Wizard: Gnome (no contest). Con bonuses. Size bonuses. Illusion spell DC boost is useful unless illusion is a banned school. Str penalty doesn't matter. Bonus wizard feats make building up feats less critical and INT as casting attribute make skills points freely available.

I agree. Humans are also lovely as wizards, and Elf Generalist Wizards, using racial subs in RotW are also fantastic. Elves take a -2 con, but the Elf Generalist is so potent it makes up for it.

Some of these choices could definitely be debated. However, the failure for Half-elf to show up anywhere as a serious contender for the best choice is certainly fascinating. The closest I could come is niche bard builds where every point of diplomacy matters and it's worth suffering penalties to get them.

Notice, as well, with every melee class, except for Paladin, the dwarf is the MVP -- being either the best choice or a close contender. They are only a bad choice for rogues and other skill experts . . .

I like Human in almost every class, and I agree, Dwarf is a strong choice in many also. As you note, Half-Elf never surfaces. Thats because they are terrible. =P

 

[Jdvn1]

Gnomes are useful little buggers, but don't underestimate the annoyance of being grappled as a Wizard--my Archivist in Shackled City was closest to death against the stupid Grell in Life's Bazaar, moreso than facing the final encounter.

I consider Escape Artist an essential skill for almost all Small characters for this reason.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

... disagree that Turn undead is not a good mechanic. Many excellent Divine Feats make great use of turns even for campaigns that dont use Undead

I was only looking at core rules. Some divine feats are cool, and it doesn't bother me, at least, that you're giving up a useless ability for something powerful.

and if undead do show up, Turning is very powerful.

Not really, especially after a few levels. There are lots of undead with "too many Hit Dice" to be turned. I don't blame the people who invented the monsters, I blame the people who copied a 2e mechanic without making it part of the unified mechanic. Now you end up with liches being easy to turn and Colossal or 20 Hit Dice zombies (with a lower CR) being harder to turn.

Because the mechanic isn't part of the unified mechanic, it's hard to memorize. Every time we had to turn something, out came the rulebook. Every single time. We had one player who claimed he could memorize it ... well, he was wrong.

Further, Divine Metamagic is broken, and is powered by Charisma, and Dwarves are not good at that at all. So Humans. For sure.

I will agree that Divine Metamagic is broken, which is why I wouldn't use or allow it. As a result, I didn't include it in my thinking.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I consider Escape Artist an essential skill for almost all Small characters for this reason.

Escape Artist doesn't help stop the initial grapple though, and against a grell, that initial grapple is enough to kill. Despite this, it is definitely still a solid choice, but forcing the cross-class skill to have a still fairly weak (but much higher) chance to escape grapples exacerbates the human's skill point benefit, effectively doubling it.

 

[Seeten]

I was only looking at core rules. Some divine feats are cool, and it doesn't bother me, at least, that you're giving up a useless ability for something powerful.

Most DM's I have met use core + completes, so my thinking is based on that. Divine Might, Divine Spell Power, Divine Metamagic, Sacred Vengeance, Divine Armor, Divine Shield, all very good, all need turn attempts.(And if you have multiple fights a day, multiple turn attempts.)

Not really, especially after a few levels. There are lots of undead with "too many Hit Dice" to be turned. I don't blame the people who invented the monsters, I blame the people who copied a 2e mechanic without making it part of the unified mechanic. Now you end up with liches being easy to turn and Colossal or 20 Hit Dice zombies (with a lower CR) being harder to turn.

Anyone who wants to be able to turn, WILL be able to turn. Between domains and feats, it isnt hard to outstrip the HD of even undead with Turn Resistance.

Because the mechanic isn't part of the unified mechanic, it's hard to memorize. Every time we had to turn something, out came the rulebook. Every single time. We had one player who claimed he could memorize it ... well, he was wrong.

This I don't disagree with. I still have no idea what to roll, what the rolls mean, or what to add to them.

I will agree that Divine Metamagic is broken, which is why I wouldn't use or allow it. As a result, I didn't include it in my thinking.

It is, however, still in the core rules, and has not been errata'd in anyway despite multiple opportunities to do so by WotC, so its obviously here to stay. Most DM's have not houseruled it, and so, it must be accounted for, on the main, and variant campaigns banning it would be exceptions. Still, I agree its broken, and I already told the person whose running the campaign my human cleric is in I will not be taking it.

 

[Rystil Arden]

and variant campaigns banning it would be exceptions

I have found campaigns allowing it to be exceptions. In fact, any GM who allows this feat makes me think twice about their judgment, unless they are trying to have extremely powerful characters or have some other pressing reason.

 

[Thanee]

It is, however, still in the core rules, ...

No, it is not.

Most DM's have not houseruled it, and so, it must be accounted for, on the main, and variant campaigns banning it would be exceptions.

Many have surely houseruled it, but most probably not... usually mostly, because it simply is rarely taken - despite its obvious power - and thus does not have any impact on the campaign, anyways, which means that it is not really thought about, I'd guess.

I have houseruled it and disallow it in combination with Persistent Spell and Quicken Spell.

Next step, however, is probably of a more general nature to disallow ANY AND ALL metamagic metaabilities to break the standard spell level cap of a character (i.e. as the FR Incantatrix errata).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

PHB classes/races only, I'd probably put them as follows:

Barbarian: Human or Dwarf
Bard: Human or Half-Elf
Cleric: Dwarf
Druid: Human
Fighter: Dwarf
Monk: Dwarf
Paladin: Human
Ranger: Human
Rogue: Halfling or Dwarf
Sorcerer: Human
Wizard: Elf or Gnome

Bye
Thanee