Class System, with or without you? What do you think?

[Drawmack]

I think you should check out d20 CoC for a classless d20 system. I am personally working on a system where everyone builds their class by purchasing class skills, class feats and class bonuses.

 

[Fenes 2]

I see one danger in classless systems, and that is the infamous minmaxed combat mage in all his incarnations dominating the game. It is very difficult to balance a system without leaving loopholes for such characters. We had that problem with Shadowrun (A cybered light machine gun wielding combat mage with 6 bound elementals and quickened spells and an enchanted sword on his back was the result).

A friend of mine had the same problem with the SAGA rules, and I saw the same potentional problem with the 2E players' options series.

 

[bret]

I see one danger in classless systems, and that is the infamous minmaxed combat mage in all his incarnations dominating the game. It is very difficult to balance a system without leaving loopholes for such characters.

I thought the 'infamous minmaxed combat mage' was pretty much a regular of D&D. Why do you think that MinMaxing suddenly becomes worse when you go classless?

As for balance, it takes care of itself. You set challenges, the characters try and meet them. If there is something that is effective, all the characters usually pick it up. Min maxing is a lot harder in this sort of environment, because no character has an excuse to say 'but I don't do that'. Balance doesn't play into it as much as fairness, everyone has the opportunity to buy the same skills and advantages.

Every instance of a Min/Maxed character I've ever seen is someone creating a focused character that can't operate outside the (relatively) narrow confines of the environment it was built for. Make that combat monster gather information at a belle's dance, or the social monster deal with unintelligent undead. Heck, have a dry spell where the characters have to get a regular job to support themselves. They do have some saleable skills, right?

Personally, I find D&D lends itself to some of the worst min/maxing. People worry about 'wasting' a feat, they try to combine character classes in order to 'maximize' their potential, they add in PrC for a bunch of fancy new abilities. The D&D mechanics encourages a form of Min/Maxing.

Sorry, but if anything from what I've seen classless systems cause less min/maxing than classed systems.

 

[Petrosian]

classes are a world defining tool.

they group together abilities commonly gained by working at something. they tell you what needs to occur in order for y to be gained, etc.

Should someone be able to learn thru study how to cast a meteor swarm spell without learning how to cast even the most basic magics?

Should someone be able to become a physics master world class guy without knowing simple mathematics?

all they do is define the world by showing you how knowledge and abilities are intertwined.

like they seem to be doing in modern d20, loose multiclassing rules basically turn "class" almost completely into "period of time i worked on..." which makes even more sense.

i think classes serve an invaluable purpose for many game worlds.

 

[Fenes 2]

I thought the 'infamous minmaxed combat mage' was pretty much a regular of D&D. Why do you think that MinMaxing suddenly becomes worse when you go classless?

As for balance, it takes care of itself. You set challenges, the characters try and meet them. If there is something that is effective, all the characters usually pick it up. Min maxing is a lot harder in this sort of environment, because no character has an excuse to say 'but I don't do that'. Balance doesn't play into it as much as fairness, everyone has the opportunity to buy the same skills and advantages.

Every instance of a Min/Maxed character I've ever seen is someone creating a focused character that can't operate outside the (relatively) narrow confines of the environment it was built for. Make that combat monster gather information at a belle's dance, or the social monster deal with unintelligent undead. Heck, have a dry spell where the characters have to get a regular job to support themselves. They do have some saleable skills, right?

Personally, I find D&D lends itself to some of the worst min/maxing. People worry about 'wasting' a feat, they try to combine character classes in order to 'maximize' their potential, they add in PrC for a bunch of fancy new abilities. The D&D mechanics encourages a form of Min/Maxing.

Sorry, but if anything from what I've seen classless systems cause less min/maxing than classed systems.

IME, the worst days of the combat mage were when the elven bladesinging fighter/mage was introduced in the previous editions of D&D. In 3E, I simply see no way to construct a combat mage that can throw fireballs with the best of them while holding his own in melee. The meleeing self-buffed cleric comes close, but not quite.

 

[wilsonodk]

Classless != D&D

Jediblack
If you are really interested in a classless system
try something other than D&D
The core game concept is rutted in a class
If you change that then you really aren't playing D&D,
but instead are playing a game medival D&D game.

MinMaxers
Every game system I've played allowed you to minmax.
In real life people minmax.
Example,
I'm a Web Developer,
So I buy books on new Web Technologies and read lists and blogs about it.
So, when i "level up" i spend most of my "skill points" in Knowledge (The Internet)
My buddy the Traffic Engineer doesn't
All his skill points are split between Knowledge (Traffic) and Knowledge (Bureaucracy) (He works for the County
Minmaxing isn't bad, when you do it you limit what else you can do
and therefor make the DM's job of killing you easier

My point is,
Every RPG has a layer of abstraction to describe
what you are capable of doing.
Each of those systems "fit" a particular style.
IMHO, D&D (especially 3e) is a great system with classes
If I want to play something more loose (and classless) I play a different
game system, such as White Wolf's World of Darkness
Minmaxing is going to happen irregardless of system
It isn't a feature of a game, but instead an attribute of a player.

 

[Petrosian]

[/B][/QUOTE]

I thought the 'infamous minmaxed combat mage' was pretty much a regular of D&D. Why do you think that MinMaxing suddenly becomes worse when you go classless?

Classes provide groups of things that go together as a package. Some of those may not be inherently linked to your particular focus. For example, if i were building an enchanter MINMAX i would not "waste points" on my will save that i could use for my enchanter spell DCs.

Class systems tend to try and make the classes balanced packages for the srtting. The key is, classes are setting specific, not generic.

As for balance, it takes care of itself. You set challenges, the characters try and meet them. If there is something that is effective, all the characters usually pick it up. Min maxing is a lot harder in this sort of environment, because no character has an excuse to say 'but I don't do that'. Balance doesn't play into it as much as fairness, everyone has the opportunity to buy the same skills and advantages.

Well , my first thoguht was that the reason for not taking "effective item number 12" eben though it is clearly the right choice power wise, is that it does not fit your character.

"ecause the system lets you" is to my way of gaming not a valid reason for buying something. "because it fits my character" is.

In our current HERo game, we each have areas we left out, even tho we knew we woudl need them, because it made no sense in character terms. We could have each built more self sufficient characters, without openings and weaknesses, b8ut that would be less enjoyable in many regards.

The DND classes, with their differentiation, tend to make teams necessary. No one class can meet all threat. No one class can be self-sufficient. hence the SETTING goal of "team play" is aided by the class "holes" so to speak.

Every instance of a Min/Maxed character I've ever seen is someone creating a focused character that can't operate outside the (relatively) narrow confines of the environment it was built for. Make that combat monster gather information at a belle's dance, or the social monster deal with unintelligent undead. Heck, have a dry spell where the characters have to get a regular job to support themselves. They do have some saleable skills, right?

These sound more like poor syncing between player understanding and Gm understanding of what the campaign would be like.

Personally, I find D&D lends itself to some of the worst min/maxing. People worry about 'wasting' a feat, they try to combine character classes in order to 'maximize' their potential, they add in PrC for a bunch of fancy new abilities. The D&D mechanics encourages a form of Min/Maxing.

To the degree that the GM makes efficiency important, the players will strive for it. System is irrelevent in that regard. With a classed system, the packages are more defined and linked. With a classless system, less so.

All classes do is define advancement in world sense. They show you a lot about the world. They help to define it.

Sorry, but if anything from what I've seen classless systems cause less min/maxing than classed systems.

The big difference between class and classless i have seen, point buy vs classes, is that classes provide the players with an understanding and expectations of what is that their characters would also have.

often, while classless systems often rely on the GMs to fill in the gaps, the Gm, who is spending time on other matters, wont take that time. As such, things like advancement rates become a matter of "points. "

In a recent HERO game i was not GMing, we had no computer expert yet we captured computer parts with info. over the course of about 2 game weeks, a player spent his XP and went from nominal computer knowledge to nigh expert (3 pt to go from no roll other than GM allowed 25% chances to 83% chance... described in game terms as "he read "computers for dummies" over the weekend."

In a classed system ala DND he would advance slowly