class variant: wilderness rogue

Scott DeWar

Prof. Emeritus-Supernatural Events/Countermeasure
I found in the d20 srd a variant of the rogue class : the wilderness rogue and was instructed to submitt a proposal to accept this class. so here goes: the following information is found in the srd as found from the unearthed arcana....

Rogue Variant: Wilderness Rogue
The wilderness rogue prefers to put her skills to use in the great outdoors, rather than in cramped alleys and dungeon corridors. In many ways, she is similar to the traditional ranger, though with less combat savvy and with none of the ranger's divine link to the natural world.

Class Skills
Remove the following rogue class skills from the wilderness rogue's class skill list: Appraise, Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Forgery, and Gather Information.

Add the following skills to the wilderness rogue's class skill list: Handle Animal(cha), Knowledge (geography)(int), Knowledge (nature)(int), Ride(dex), and Survival(wis).

Class Features
The wilderness rogue has all the standard rogue class features, except as noted below.

Special Abilities
Add woodland stride (as the 7th-level ranger ability), camouflage (as the 13th-level ranger ability) and hide in plain sight (as the 17th-level ranger ability, requires the rogue to already have the camouflage ability) to the list of special abilities that can be chosen by the wilderness rogue


if there is anything else i need to do, just let me know.

thank you to all of the judges in advance for your time,

Scott DeWar, drinker of dewar's scotch
 

B4cchus

Visitor
Although I don't think this variant is very unbalanced or completely overpowered (just slightly) I also don't think this variant adds enough to add a variant to the base classes.
For the skills I suggest multi-classing rogue with ranger. If the rogue class abilities are that important I suggest a prestige class.
 

Rae ArdGaoth

Visitor
So the Wilderness Rogue = Plain Rogue++? They swap some skills out, though none of them are the quintessential Rogue skills which might really hurt a rogue character if they were not available (Sleight of Hand, Open Lock, Disable Device, Use Magic Device). Also, they get some new abilities!

Where's the downside?
 

Scott DeWar

Prof. Emeritus-Supernatural Events/Countermeasure
downside ?
*squirm shuffle shuffle squirm*
there has to be a down side?

(some thing tells me this is going to be rejected...o well i tried any way)
 

Trouvere

Visitor
Scott DeWar said:
downside ?
*squirm shuffle shuffle squirm*
there has to be a down side?
[obfuscate] Down side? It loses 16 levels of spellcasting, an animal companion, favored enemies, 1 HP per level, combat feats, drops to medium BAB progression and poor Fort save progression, and will need to spend a regular feat on Track if it wants to get any real use out of Survival as a class skill - and in exchange, all it gets is sneak attack, trapfinding, uncanny dodge, evasion 7 levels early, and an extra 2 skill points per level! (It's all in which comparison you make) [/obfuscate]
 

Heckler

Visitor
I like it. Its great for that horse rustler that's so low-down he has to reach up to scratch a snake's belly.

The skill swaps balance out IMO, and this allows a nice non-fighter type for rural characters. I see this in the same vein as the urban druid/ranger. (And allowing this may open the door for them, don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.)

One thing that may need clarifying:

Scott DeWar[b said:
Special Abilities[/b]
Add woodland stride (as the 7th-level ranger ability), camouflage (as the 13th-level ranger ability) and hide in plain sight (as the 17th-level ranger ability, requires the rogue to already have the camouflage ability) to the list of special abilities that can be chosen by the wilderness rogue
The wilderness rogue doesn't gain these abilities. They are added to the list of abilities he may choose from starting at 10th level. I don't see that as being any different from adding new spells to the spellcaster's available list. Just because they're there doesn't mean they have to take it.
 

Rae ArdGaoth

Visitor
Hmm, somehow I missed that rather important detail when I first read the proposal. I find myself agreeing, that the skill swaps are pretty balanced. I am not convinced, however, that the class should be added to LEW's ever-growing list of approved variants.

With the balance issue resolved (there never really was one to begin with, was there? =P) the only argument I see against it is rules bloat. How many players would be interested in such a variant, and why not do as B4cchus suggested and simply multi-class?
 

Trouvere

Visitor
Rae ArdGaoth said:
With the balance issue resolved (there never really was one to begin with, was there? =P)
There's never a balance issue that matters while druids exist. :p
the only argument I see against it is rules bloat. How many players would be interested in such a variant, and why not do as B4cchus suggested and simply multi-class?
It might make a difference for races other than human, halfling and half-elf, which would have to take into account multiclassing penalties. What would your options be to build a roguish elf at home in the wilds, if you didn't want to play a dumb-as-a-stump Wood Elf (which changes favored class from Wiz to Rgr)?

If progressive rules bloat is to become a problem in getting other UA material accepted, then the wilderness rogue would be far down my list of priorities, behind the druid variants (swift hunter, avenger) and bard variants (divine, savage, 'fey'). Of course, I have 3 PCs already - though one of them is stuck in limbo (metaphorically, not thanks to plane shift).
 
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Heckler

Visitor
Trouvere said:
If progressive rules bloat is to become a problem in getting other UA material accepted, then the wilderness rogue would be far down my list of priorities, behind the druid variants (swift hunter, avenger) and bard variants (divine, savage, 'fey'). Of course, I have 3 PCs already - though one of them is stuck in limbo (metaphorically, not thanks to plane shift).
I believe savage bard has already been approved for LEW.
 

Rae ArdGaoth

Visitor
Trouvere said:
It might make a difference for races other than human, halfling and half-elf, which would have to take into account multiclassing penalties. What would your options be to build a roguish elf at home in the wilds, if you didn't want to play a dumb-as-a-stump Wood Elf (which changes favored class from Wiz to Rgr)?
It seems to me that if you don't want to be a human, halfling, half-elf, or wood elf ranger/rogue, then perhaps the ranger/rogue combo is not for you. A half-orc ranger/rogue would be odd, as would be a dwarven ranger/rogue. Maybe a moon elf is not so strange, but as they're meant to multi-class into Wiz, I maintain my argument that a rgr/rog is not the most ideal class progression for that character. And as for wood elves being dumb as a stump, the rgr/rog gets plenty of skill points to compensate, and a wood elf just won't find those knowledge skills to be as useful, that's all.

I'd be willing to sacrifice some min/max for a character concept.
 

orsal

LEW Judge
I'm not so worried about rules bloat with the UA variant classes -- they're pretty well known, and (mostly, including this one) close enough to core classes not to be too confusing. So, since it seems to be agreed that the extra options for special abilities are not unbalanced, I vote Yes to the Wilderness Rogue.
 

SlagMortar

Visitor
One consideration with adding skills is that it may potentially allow earlier entry to a PrC. For example, this variant rogue could go straight into horizon walker due to knowledge (geography) at level 5, where a standard rogue could not. I don't think this case is actually a problem, but it is something people will need to keep in mind when creating PrCs. Knowledge skills seem to be a common choice for skill prereqs for PrCs.
 

orsal

LEW Judge
SlagMortar said:
One consideration with adding skills is that it may potentially allow earlier entry to a PrC. For example, this variant rogue could go straight into horizon walker due to knowledge (geography) at level 5, where a standard rogue could not.
Although a standard ranger could.
 

Scott DeWar

Prof. Emeritus-Supernatural Events/Countermeasure
orsal said:
Although a standard ranger could.
it seems that there are quite a few prestige classes that can be reached in the level 5-7 range....would the ability to reach horizon walker at level 5 ranger or wilderness rogue be a bad thing?
 

SlagMortar

Visitor
Orsal said:
Although a standard ranger could.
Right.
Orsal said:
it seems that there are quite a few prestige classes that can be reached in the level 5-7 range....would the ability to reach horizon walker at level 5 ranger or wilderness rogue be a bad thing?
I don't think Horizon Walker is a problem. In fact, I don't know of any PrC's that are a problem. My point is that skills are sometimes used to ensure that a character taking a PrC has a certain class and that adding those skills to new classes has the potential to disrupt the PrC's balance. I do not know of any that the wilderness rogue will create a problem for, but I thought I would point it out in case someone else could think of one.

There are probably not any PrCs that assume a level of ranger and become overpowered with a level of wilderness rogue instead, because ranger is a good class. I think it is always worth considering if there are such PrCs, though, when making changes to the skill lists of a class.
 

Scott DeWar

Prof. Emeritus-Supernatural Events/Countermeasure
:D actually that 2nd quote was from me :lol: i just quoted orsal at the beginning of the post :heh: no harm, no foul
 

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