D&D 5E (2014) Classes, and the structure of DPR

[FrogReaver]

Treantmonk's baseline is very unrealistic.
Having hex up all the time is rather unrealistic.

Why?

 

[FrogReaver]

One particular thing i find interesting is that from level 3-10 most DPR focused subclasses stay really close in damage potential. (No feats no multilcassing)

Take a Battlemaster and Open Hands Monk (applying prone/stun debuffs that help allies hit). The damage potential of the Battlemaster using damage maneuvers and the open hands monk using flurry/stun/prone and aiding their allies in doing damage both come out to have about the same overall DPR contribution.

 

[Ancalagon]

Some are, some are not. Armor of Agathys if you can upcast it to 4th level or higher is very good, as is the new Gem Dragon feat. The shield spell is also very good.

If you are going to be in melee often, I would say all three of those are generally better investments than GWM in tier 2+. Generally defensive options get batter at higher levels where offensive options do not.

GMW I've seen used with... mediocre effect. Sure, +10 dmg, but these attacks don't always land, even with advantage. Meanwhile my sword and board is doing 1d8+9 reliably...

 

[Charlaquin]

GMW I've seen used with... mediocre effect. Sure, +10 dmg, but these attacks don't always land, even with advantage. Meanwhile my sword and board is doing 1d8+9 reliably...

There’s a simple formula to determine when the -5 to hit +10 damage increases your average damage based on the number you need to roll on the die to land a hit. Obviously you won’t always know your target’s AC, but generally you can get a close enough estimate to know when to use the option and when not to to maximize average damage output.

On paper, it’s good, but far from overpowered, if you know when to use it and when not to. But in practice it can definitely pull ahead if you frequently encounter low-AC enemies and/or have a reliable way to gain advantage. And of course the Archery fighting style makes Sharpshooter a lot stronger.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Why?

It is a concentration spell. A low level one. Usually you have better things to concentrate on which is more helpful than a few extra points of damage.
Shadow of moil for instance is much better. Summon abberation also comes to mind.
At 3rd level there is also hypnotic pattern

 

[clearstream]

So you agree that the 'whiteroom analysis' is appropriately valuing defensive options - it's just that you wish defensive options were designed differently?

No, that's not what I am saying. Whiteroom analysis does not appropriately value defensive options. I can also see where difficulties lie.

The problem put simply is that where decrementing life to zero equals victory, then on surface any amount of avoiding decrementing life cannot bring victory nearer. Designers have to think in terms of increased efficiency, losing the race less quickly, and creative use and utility. It is often difficult for players to calculate the true value of a defense at the table, so defenses you see most often used are those that fit well into the action-economy.

Blur is an example of increased efficiency. I observe that it is hardly ever considered, yet casting it can save a great many more casts on healing spells. Counterspell is a great example of a defense that is widely used, because it readily fits into the action-economy. Another is the defense fighting style, which is often taken and certainly one of the top few fighting styles for value.

 

[FrogReaver]

It is a concentration spell. A low level one. Usually you have better things to concentrate on which is more helpful than a few extra points of damage.
Shadow of moil for instance is much better. Summon abberation also comes to mind.
At 3rd level there is also hypnotic pattern

'You can at least do this with this level 1 spell, but often you'll find better spells to you use with your slots whose impact is going to be much higher than +1d6 damage per attack' - seems like a fine baseline to me even if the player sometimes chooses to use a better spell.

 

[clearstream]

'You can at least do this with this level 1 spell, but often you'll find better spells to you use with your slots whose impact is going to be much higher than +1d6 damage per attack' - seems like a fine baseline to me even if the player sometimes chooses to use a better spell.

Agreed! It applies to each bolt of eldritch blast, and has a long duration and can be transferred to new targets, which gets good value from the warlock's limited number of spell slots. It scales well into late tier 2, then in or by tier 3 I see our warlocks start to replace it with other options. The cursed ability score can also play into effects applied by other party members.

 

[FrogReaver]

No, that's not what I am saying. Whiteroom analysis does not appropriately value defensive options. I can also see where difficulties lie.

The problem put simply is that where decrementing life to zero equals victory, then on surface any amount of avoiding decrementing life cannot bring victory nearer. Designers have to think in terms of increased efficiency, losing the race less quickly, and creative use and utility. It is often difficult for players to calculate the true value of a defense at the table, so defenses you see most often used are those that fit well into the action-economy.

IMO. The problem is that in a team based game, high defense can be avoided by targeting lower defense allies. That is - defense only works as a tactic if the whole group matches (or nearly so, your investment). You need something that incentivizes enemies to attack your high defense character or the defense is basically worthless. For a caster that incentive might be casting a strong concentration spell. For a melee character it might be grappling the BBEG.

Because of the above the defensive traits that are highly valued are the ones that can prevent you from being disabled in combat (Resilient Wis for better wisdom saves) - which does tend to get recommended by whiteroomers.

Blur is an example of increased efficiency. I observe that it is hardly ever considered, yet casting it can save a great many more casts on healing spells. Counterspell is a great example of a defense that is widely used, because it readily fits into the action-economy.

Blur requires an action, only affects yourself, and enemies can choose to not target you after it's up (limited incentive to attack you vs someone else). Blur may end up preventing no damage (or more), does prevent you from concentrating on anything else, and requires a resource.

Contrast with Healing which leaves your concentration slot open, often just requires a bonus action, can target anyone in the party, and the slot isn't spent till it's actually needed (meaning it's never cast for no affect). *And that's before we get into whack-a-mole healing.

That's why Blur isn't valued highly.

Most valuations of defensive options are highly DM dependent and depend mostly on how the DM runs enemies in combat. Do they always target the turtle tank. Are they never willing to take OA's to engage another target. Etc. But if given a particular set of enemy tactical assumptions the right whiteroom handles defensive abilities just fine.

Another is the defense fighting style, which is often taken and certainly one of the top few fighting styles for value.

My takeaway from defensive style is different. Characters that go sword and shield tend to take duelist because it gives 'enough' damage and defensive style gives little defense. Characters that go Great Weapons tend to go defensive style because the damage from GWF style isn't deemed high enough compared to the +1 AC they can get. Maybe players should value the damage vs the defense differently but I happen to think they've already correctly figured it out.

 

[ECMO3]

Gift of the Gem Dragon?

It doesn't actually prevent damage - 2d8 damage and push 10' isn't horrible, but I wouldn't call it great.

Shield is quite good and scales well with level.

Not much experience with Armor of Agathys.

2d8 3 times a day in tier 2 is 27 damage and depending on movement can both prevent multiattack and it breaks grappling/swallowing attacks from enemies like Ropers and shambling mounds. It also can push an enemy into difficult terrain or other "bad" terrain.

If not, sure, GWM can actually be detrimental to DPR.

But if properly built around and utilized - it's huge.

It is not as big as everyone thinks. Using a greatsword against a 15 AC foe with 2 attacks a turn, a 16 Strength, GWM will do less than 1 point DPR (0.26 in actually) compared to someone who took an ASI in strength. That also is using your BA to make an extra attack every time you roll a crit with one of your attacks. If you don't use your bonus action you do less in damage than someone who took the ASI. If you compare it to taking another feat (which is more appropriate here) you are doing an extra 1.3 DP attack (2.6 DPR) including your bonus action attacks.

To compare the others I mentioned:

GGD: does an average of 9 every time you use it, with a save for half (4.5). To make this comparison fair we will assume the chance of a save is 1 in 3. You can use it 3 times a day in tier 2 so it will still do on average 22.5 damage per day. So in terms of damage it is the equivalent of 17 attacks using GWM against a 15 AC foe plus the additional movement which is difficult to account for mathematically.

Armor of Agathys: cast once at 3rd level is going to save you 15 hps of damage and probably averages doing around 20-25 points of damage to the enemy (with a minimum of 15). Now RAW you do need 3rd level spells to get that and you need to burn a 3rd level slot, and depending on how your DM views the wording on magic initiate you may need a level in Sorcerer or Warlock too. But in terms of damage is on the order of 19 attacks using GWM against a 15 AC foe plus the additional 15hps damage it saves from you. It does take an action to cast but since it lasts an hour that is usually done out of combat.

Finally as I mentioned above the level of play matters, because AOA is tied to spell slots and GGD is tied to proficiency these get better at higher levels, where GWM stays about the same for most classes that get it (or actually gets worse as more BAs become available). Even subpar defenses things like Gift of the Metallic Dragon get pretty good at tier 4 when it adds +5 to AC, being the equivalent of a free shield spell 5 times a day. That is much, much better at PB +5 than it is at PB +2.