Classless/Point Buy d20?

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Well, I'm still following the thread at least. Haven't had much reason to comment, but I'm still interested.

And thanks for clarifying the bit regarding the articles. It's nice to be able to see how a system handles things once you move away from the core stuff. Later things (like say the Dragon Shaman) tend to try and change things up and can consequently mess with a system that's been built with mainly the core in mind.

 

[Greg K]

Heh. Any point system can be abused. The big lie people tell themselves is that "point-based" means "balanced". I've never seen a point-based system yet that can't be abused, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone seriously argue that 2 characters of the same point value in any point-based system will also be equally effective..

I like point based, but I admit that they can abused, because they are tools and tools can be misused. However, abusing a system is, imo, not a game issue- its a player or group issue (and, if the whole group is on board than it is not an issue) .

The big thing I've noticed in point-based things is that people tend to do their best to make sure they squeeze every possible bit of "value" from each point they get to build their character..

Some people do and some don't. Point buy systems , in my experience, work best when a GM and player work together during character generation. My recent experience with my M&M group.

- one of my M&M players recently presented a character that we had discussed. While looking over the sheet, I questioned his approach for a power and he said it was to save points. The reason he was short on points was that he was trying to max out the saves ignoring the campaign benchmarks and where we agreed his character fit. I simply told him not to game the system and go back and adjust it to what we had discussed. There was no arguments.

- another player was staying in the levels we discussed, but then tried adding new abilties to cover every base. I reminded him it was a team game and that he was stepping on the other characters. Partially, he had lost site of his character. However, he admittedly was also testing me- trying to see what I would allow him to get away with (he was new to my group). That I called him on it impressed him. He happily went back and made appropriate changes.

- the other four players had no problems other than questioning what rating best represented a particular level of power that they had in mind for an ability.

 

[Angellis_ater]

This book (Complete Control) is now available for purchase here: Dreamscarred Press - The Definitive Source for d20 Psionics › Dreamscarred Press PDF Store › Complete Control

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Alright, as the author of Complete Control I just got my first look at layout, art, and captioning. Of course I knew what the text contained! But the work is a beautiful piece. For less than $10, I am certain that most gamers who enjoy the prospect of point-buy character development and classless systems will find it a treasure. I know, I am of course biased. But I cannot give high enough praise for the layout, art, and captioning provided by DSP staff. Feel free to check it out at the link above.

Furthermore, on the DSP forums a FAQ thread has been started while people begin to read up on the system and begin to use it. As the author, I will be aprticipating in the thread as a sign of support for readers/supporters of the product.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I like point based, but I admit that they can abused, because they are tools and tools can be misused. However, abusing a system is, imo, not a game issue- its a player or group issue (and, if the whole group is on board than it is not an issue) .

As I said in a post above several months ago, I concur. A system is merely a system. Any group with any goal can break a system if the goal of the group and the goal of a system aren't compatible. Systems of game play should always be chosen with the gaming group in mind.

Some people do and some don't. Point buy systems , in my experience, work best when a GM and player work together during character generation. My recent experience with my M&M group.

I also concur. Under Complete Control, I very specifically say that "a Powergaming group can be challenged like never before by a Powergaming GM and a Role-playing group can know characters of greater depth under a Role-playing GM." When players and GM come together, the game grows more deep.

 

[Runestar]

Just curious.

Won't a point-buy system just encourage more system mastery, over and above what 3e currently entails? Now, you have free reign in cherry-picking what sort of abilities you want (and what you can dump). At least 3e required you to take the good with the bad (for instance, good prcs can have crappy/expensive prerequisites to balance it out).

You can already see an example in the form of the fighter, where depending on how much effort you put in tricking him out, you either get a fairly competent build, or an outright useless one.

That said, it looks like an optimizer's wet dream.

 

[ValhallaGH]

As has been mentioned, point buy systems are only as broken as the people playing them want them to be.

My experience has been an initial period of hyper-optimization while staying loosely attached to the character concept, followed by pure boredom when each character turns out to be a one-man party. This was followed by a new attempt, one where everyone limited themselves to what fit their character (including appropriate growth given their actions); this has remained the standard and has been a great deal of fun for everyone.

No matter what phase we were in, the GM always had the ability to challenge the party because he had access to all the same optimization techniques (including counter-tricks) as the players.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Won't a point-buy system just encourage more system mastery, over and above what 3e currently entails? Now, you have free reign in cherry-picking what sort of abilities you want (and what you can dump). At least 3e required you to take the good with the bad (for instance, good prcs can have crappy/expensive prerequisites to balance it out).

A lot of that depends on the game. As the author of Complete Control, one ofthe things I encourage is that the prerequisites for the PrCs simply shift over to the class abilities within them. Perhaps not all prereqs shift over to all abilities ... but I do think that class abilities should need some prereqs in many instances. So, that will help to maintain some balance. However - your point canot be denied. In a group of powergamers and under a powergaming DM ... combat will be much more dangerous for everyone involved (including the players!).

On the flipside, a game full of non-optimizers who design characters not for powergaming but for "reality" can also find something truly wonderful in point-buy. Now they can learn what their character wants instead of what some author says they have to learn as the progress through a class. In these type of games, Complete Control really works well, too.

That said, it looks like an optimizer's wet dream.

I hope you pick it up and enjoy it! If you do, let me know what you think. Within the "Designer's Notes" chapter I freely admit that there are people who would probably pick a different progression here and there. But my hope is that overall the product is useful to a vast array of tables.

My experience has been an initial period of hyper-optimization while staying loosely attached to the character concept, followed by pure boredom when each character turns out to be a one-man party. This was followed by a new attempt, one where everyone limited themselves to what fit their character (including appropriate growth given their actions); this has remained the standard and has been a great deal of fun for everyone.

No matter what phase we were in, the GM always had the ability to challenge the party because he had access to all the same optimization techniques (including counter-tricks) as the players.

Thank you for bringing this to the conversation going on here. I don't play with true "optimizers" and "powergamers" all that often, so I didn't experience the progression as you describe it (we jumped to your end position a bit quicker). But, your expression seems very plausible - and I can see it being a natural progression within a group. Should you pick up Complete Control, I hope that the GM would continue to be able to challenge the group in each phase as well. I have found it to betrue in my groups. Ultimately, I am glad that your group waws able to move through that progression and end up in a place/understandin that was a lot of fun.

 

[Runestar]

As has been mentioned, point buy systems are only as broken as the people playing them want them to be.

Broken and system mastery are 2 different things. My query was more of how intuitive the system was to a player who wanted to just spend a minimum amount of time to build a PC to play? Will a hastily built PC still be viable, or will it stink to high heavens? Will I be required to invest a lot of time and effort in understanding what abilities synergize well with others before a viable PC can be constructed? Will I find myself sifting through hundreds of feats/abilities, with the grim knowledge that only a small proportion of them are actually useful, and I have my work cut out for me in terms of determining what those are? What is the disparity in power level?

On an unrelated side note, I know there was a time when I was more interested in tinkering with the 3.5e ruleset than actually playing the game. Days and days spent on end thinking up of new innovative character builds to stat up, how to better optimize/improve the existing MM npc entries, or simply giving statted npc blocks in published adventures a complete overhaul. Some eventually saw play in later campaigns though. Ah...good times...

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Broken and system mastery are 2 different things. My query was more of how intuitive the system was to a player who wanted to just spend a minimum amount of time to build a PC to play? Will a hastily built PC still be viable, or will it stink to high heavens? Will I be required to invest a lot of time and effort in understanding what abilities synergize well with others before a viable PC can be constructed? Will I find myself sifting through hundreds of feats/abilities, with the grim knowledge that only a small proportion of them are actually useful, and I have my work cut out for me in terms of determining what those are? What is the disparity in power level?

I had a nice answer posted here ... and ENWorld told me I wasn't logged in anymore. So, I'm going to try this again. Sorry. Short answer: No, a hastily built character should be more effective in Complete Control than a hastily build character would be in a regular game.

There are several reasons for this. First, Complete Control doesn't have penalties for multiclassing. You can buy the BAB, Saves, Manifester/Caster levels that you want. This can be done quickly, too! And let's face it - in fighters and magic/psionics users that is where the power/effectiveness lies. So in Complete Control - you should be able to build effective fighters and magic/psionics users more quickly than in a regular game. {Of course, agonizing over spell/powr lists will be the same in CC and in a standard game}

The second reason that I think effective characters can be built quicker is all those hours spent trying to find the right combination of classe to get into the PrC you want. In CC that time is essentially gone. There are no class skills ... so if you want a skill to fulfill a prerequisite you can buy it. Also, you don't need to know all the classes that offer a certain combination of abilities. If you need an ability for a PrC requirement you want, you buy it. It's that simple. It doesn't matter how the various classes combine to meet the prereqs. You simply buy the ability and meet the prereqs. {Of course, the prereqs I'm talking about is if the DM transfers some/all of a PrCs prereqs onto the abilities contained within it ... which is recommended in CC for balance reasons.}

For these reasons, you should be able to put together an effective character in less time than a standard game. The ONLY thing that will take longer is adding up the XP totals spent. But if you can use a calculator (or better yet a spreadsheet that auto-tabulates) this can be done quickly and error-free. As an example, I can throw a legitimate character together in 15 to 30 minutes because I use Excel. Without Excel, it may take a bit longer, depending on how sure I am on my math tabulation.