Cleave and AoO

[Baron Von StarBlade]

Here are the points I am trying to make:

1) How is an attack deliverd by an AoO different from an attack deliverd during a standard attack action?
- They are not different. The difference is what causes the attack to take place.

2) During an AoO Cleave, what does the target of the Cleave do to provoke an attack?
- They are standing in a threatened area, and an ally is dropped to below 0 hp.

3) During Standard Attack Action Cleave, what does the target of the Cleave do to provoke an attack?
- They are standing in a threatened area, and an ally is dropped to below 0 hp.

Therefore why would the 2 seperate attack actions be treated differently. What provokes the attack shouldn't and doesn't affect the mechanic of a cleave.

 

[mikebr99]

Here are the points I am trying to make:

1) How is an attack deliverd by an AoO different from an attack deliverd during a standard attack action?
- They are not different. The difference is what causes the attack to take place.

2) During an AoO Cleave, what does the target of the Cleave do to provoke an attack?
- They are standing in a threatened area, and an ally is dropped to below 0 hp.

3) During Standard Attack Action Cleave, what does the target of the Cleave do to provoke an attack?
- They are standing in a threatened area, and an ally is dropped to below 0 hp.

Therefore why would the 2 seperate attack actions be treated differently. What provokes the attack shouldn't and doesn't affect the mechanic of a cleave.

And the Baron has it...

The Orc isn't being punished (cleaved) because his buddy decided to drink a potion (& provoked an AoO), he's being punished (cleaved) because his buddy died...

And it doesn't matter what initiated the attack... it still allows the mighty fighter to follow through with his mighty swing of his great axe into the next enemy.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Re: So even though...

So even though cleave states that when you reduce a target to zero or below HP's, you can make an additional attack, you dont get an attack? AoO stands for ATTACKS of opportunity.

The 'additional' attack is, however, the exact same attack as the original. You can't, for isntance, cleave through one enemy in order to disarm the next. Though I think you /should/ be able to cleave when you drop someone with an AoO, you should only cleave into another enemy who is also provoking an AoO - otherwise, the second enemy, who hasn't dropped his gaurd like the one you dropped, will be able to avoid (dodge/parry/whatever) the attack. Unlike his deceased friend, he's ready for it.

In other words, you get the additional attack, you just may not have anyone to use it on - always an issue with Cleave.

...

However, I find it much more useful to think of Cleave, not as giving you and additional attack, but as retroactively making the attack which dropped the foe a freebie... Great Cleaving isn't like nabbing a video game powerup - your character doesn't suddenly accelerate or sprout extra swords or anything.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Baron, I see your points. They make sense and they fit the rules just fine.

However, they lead to undesireable conclusions - such as the 'bag o rats' fighter or AoOs against characters who didn't provoke them.

Convoluted though my interpretation might be, it also fits the rules, and it avoids those problems.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Re: So even though...

So even though cleave states that when you reduce a target to zero or below HP's, you can make an additional attack, you dont get an attack? AoO stands for ATTACKS of opportunity.

I personally liked the sweep rule better from a long time ago

I understand perfectly what the rules say.

Whether the rules as applied violate 'common sense' or not is what I am discussing.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Here are the points I am trying to make:

1) How is an attack deliverd by an AoO different from an attack deliverd during a standard attack action?
- They are not different. The difference is what causes the attack to take place.

2) During an AoO Cleave, what does the target of the Cleave do to provoke an attack?
- They are standing in a threatened area, and an ally is dropped to below 0 hp.

3) During Standard Attack Action Cleave, what does the target of the Cleave do to provoke an attack?
- They are standing in a threatened area, and an ally is dropped to below 0 hp.

Therefore why would the 2 seperate attack actions be treated differently. What provokes the attack shouldn't and doesn't affect the mechanic of a cleave.

(BTW, I do actually understand the rules as written. I just disagree with the results in this case. I think they are inconsistent and create ugly loopholes that can best be fixed by disallowing cleaves on AoOs.)

As for your questions, yes, they are all the same...if you simply forget all the differences.

The difference between a normal attack and an AoO is the normal attack comes on the attacker's action on his initiative and the AoO does not. An AoO is an extra attack that occurs presumably because the victim did something that let his guard down.

I flat out disagree with your answer to quesiton #3. My answer: "They are standing in a threatened area during the opponent's action."

My argument rests around tracking actions because I think that is the most fundamental concept to the combat mechanics.

You are tracking threatened areas and ignoring both actions and initiative, whatever happens happens. That is not an invalid approach but it rests on a very nebulous abstraction and creates confusing loopholes.

I think you look back at my examples and track the initiative order you should see what I am talking about.

I would agree with Tony Vargas: Cleave makes the most sense if you think of it as retroactively making your last attack free instead of it giving you a new free action after the fact. Maybe that reveals why I disagree with the Baron.

 

[Nail]

(BTW, I do actually understand the rules as written. I just disagree with the results in this case. I think they are inconsistent and create ugly loopholes that can best be fixed by disallowing cleaves on AoOs.)

RC: Why don't you go wit' a previous suggestion?:
You can use Cleave wit' AoO. But only on threatened creatures that have also provoked AoOs from you. After all, the AoO is only supposed to be used on those that provoke it. So, the Cleave action is part of the AoO......

Example: A bunch of goblins runs thru yer threatened area. If you have Cleave, and drop one with an AoO, you may use the Cleave on the other goblins that have also provoked AoOs.

This solves the "buddy drank a potion, and now I get smacked" problem pretty neatly, I'd say. And no need to Rule zero the Cleave feat.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

RC: Why don't you go wit' a previous suggestion?:
You can use Cleave wit' AoO. But only on threatened creatures that have also provoked AoOs from you. After all, the AoO is only supposed to be used on those that provoke it. So, the Cleave action is part of the AoO......

I like the idea but I think there are timing issues making implementation confusing. The mechanics assume the goblins move only one at a time, right? So what if no goblin is within reach at the moment of the AoO

So I suspect it is easier to dispense with Cleave on AoO altogether rather than create a complicated exception.

Anyone have experience using this idea in play?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I like the idea but I think there are timing issues making implementation confusing. The mechanics assume the goblins move only one at a time, right? So what if no goblin is within reach at the moment of the AoO

I'm glad you brought that up. Even though I proposed the idea, I agree, that's a problem with it.

Because AoOs are provoked between your actions, the exact timing is less important. You can't do anything between cleave attempts, so it's critical that you use the cleave immediately when you cleave on your action. You can't do anything beyond taking AoOs between actions, so the exact timing shouldn't be a problem.

Now, a lot of DMs seem to move bunches of enemies on the same initiative, ("the three orcs charge you!") even though that's not exactly how the rules work, because it's easier. If you do that, you probably won't run into the problem too often, and, when you do, you might just as soon rule that you can't cleave into someone from one AoO because, later in the round, they provoke an AoO for a different reason... If you are going with the standard initiative order (no 'simultaneous' actions), the simplest way to hand Cleaving off an AoO is to give the character with Cleave his AoO back. Normally, you can take one AoO. If you have Cleave and drop someone with an AoO, you don't 'use up' that one AoO. (I know: what about 'Combat Reflexes?' - well, cleave or great cleave still require you drop the other guy, which limits how often it'll come up, and Combat Reflexes also lets you take AoOs when flatfooted, so I don't think the ruling would obviate that feat).

Again, this is going with the idea of Cleave making the prior attack free, rather than giving you a free attack, but, in that context, it seems to me sensible and not particularly complicated.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Tony,

I like that. It is very clean and consistent.

The Cleave vs. Combat Reflexes is not a big deal. CR is definitely still better in most of those situations that really matter.