Cleave and Full Attack

[Starfox]

Can you use cleave on a partial action? Around here, we always played that you can, but I'm beginning to doubt this now. I never saw this in an FAQ or Sage Advice, but maybe it just seemed too obvious.

From the PH under the defintion of Cleave:

Prerequisites: Str 13+, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points, killing it, etc), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature in the immediate vicinity. [...]

From the PH, under Full Attack Action:

If you get more than one attack per action because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons, because you're using a double weapon, or for some special reason (such as a feat or magic item), you must use the full attack action to get your additional attacks.

This clearly states that this is not merely itterative attacks due to BAB; it is all kinds of special attacks.

These two rules combined seem to indicate you cannot use Cleave except on a Full Attack Action. The Cleave is an extra attack, and extra attacks are only allowed with a Full Attack Action. This would also prohibit the use of Cleave with an Attack of Opportunity.

This would also explain why Supreme Cleave from S&F has no provisio for how you combine it with the normal movement allowed on a standard attack. You simply cannot make a standard attack with Cleave.

Is there anything official on this? Has it been adressed before? I found nothing on a search.

(Edited for clarity)

 

[Starfox]

OK, I found the answer in the latest FAQ:

Feats
Do you have to use the full attack action to get the
benefits of the Cleave or Great Cleave feats? I™d say so,
since you have to use the full attack action to get more than
one attack.

No, you don't have to use the full attack action to get the
benefit of either one of these feats. If you have either or both of
the feats, you get an extra attack (or possibly extra attacks with
Great Cleave) whenever you drop a foe, no matter what type of
action you used to drop the foe.

 

[S'mon]

OK, I found the answer in the latest FAQ:

Feats
Do you have to use the full attack action to get the
benefits of the Cleave or Great Cleave feats? I™d say so,
since you have to use the full attack action to get more than
one attack.

No, you don't have to use the full attack action to get the
benefit of either one of these feats. If you have either or both of
the feats, you get an extra attack (or possibly extra attacks with
Great Cleave) whenever you drop a foe, no matter what type of
action you used to drop the foe.

The PHB clearly states that any attack routine involving more than one attack in the round requires the Full Attack action. This is at the core of the PHB's combat system.

OTOH, Skip Williams in the FAQ contradicts this, as he contradicts the PHB in many other places. I think he either hasn't actually read the PHB very closely, or perhaps more plausibly he disagreed with Tweet's whole approach and is trying to effect various rules changes by stealth. Skip also says you can Whirlwind attack while Great Cleaving, and indeed can make off-hand attacks while Whirlwind attacking.

Go with whichever approach you prefer. From experience though I've learned that sticking with the actual wording of the PHB and not trying to second-guess it gives me the best game. I hope my players never read the FAQ.

 

[Starfox]

From experience though I've learned that sticking with the actual wording of the PHB and not trying to second-guess it gives me the best game. I hope my players never read the FAQ.

I must agree, S'mon, I also use this approach. I often find the Sage Advice and FAQ spurious. But I see a great value in playing the game the same way all around the world, so I mostly use any "official" corrections anyway.

 

[hong]

The PHB clearly states that any attack routine involving more than one attack in the round requires the Full Attack action. This is at the core of the PHB's combat system.

And yet you can make attacks of opportunity without using the full attack action.

Cleave grants a benefit that takes place outside the normal round of attacks that's governed by the action/full action setup. That's really all there is to it.

 

[IceBear]

I'm with hong here, if you force players to use the Full Attack option in order to cleave you are really dilluting the power of the feat. Feats can allow you to do things that you normally can't, and all the cleave feat does is allow you to make an extra attack after you drop an opponent.

Yes, the Sage has made some dubious rulings in the past. To me all the FAQ is, is a reference to use if my group and I can work out the rules together; I can look at the FAQ and get some sort of opinion (whether it's right or wrong) from Skip.

IceBear

 

[Bonedagger]

To save us the problem let's just say that Cleave is a single attack that might hit more than one opponent.

(Kind of how I picture a "Cleave")

 

[S'mon]

And yet you can make attacks of opportunity without using the full attack action.

Cleave grants a benefit that takes place outside the normal round of attacks that's governed by the action/full action setup. That's really all there is to it.

AoOs are 'given' to you by the other party, so yes they are a special case that doesn't require a full attack action. Cleave, whirlwind attack, iterative attacks, off-hand attacks, flurry of blows etc are all intended in the PHB to require a full attack action IMO. I guess Skip doesn't like this - it's noticeable in the MM that a lot of monsters find ways around this principle, sometimes sensibly (Pounce attack for great cats), sometimes less so.

 

[Tom Cashel]

AoOs are 'given' to you by the other party, so yes they are a special case that doesn't require a full attack action. Cleave, whirlwind attack, iterative attacks, off-hand attacks, flurry of blows etc are all intended in the PHB to require a full attack action IMO.

Cleave is also 'given' to you by the other party...when they run out of hit points. i.e. there's no way to predict when you will be allowed to Cleave (unlike your other examples). I agree with those who have said that you don't need to take the Full Attack to Cleave.

The Monk in my group got quite upset when I told her that she couldn't run up to a foe and use the flurry of blows. Then I referred her to the Full-Round Attack rules, and she quieted down.

The assumption that Skip is determined to hijack the d20 philosophy with his rulings is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? I'd wager he knows the rules far better than any of us...

 

[IceBear]

From past postings, I think S'mon has an issue with Skip, so I think he's letting his feelings for him come into play on this.

Feats are designed to allow you to do things that you normally can't - I see them as sometimes being exceptions to the rules. For example, you can't normally attack four opponents with a +12 BAB, but WWA allows that AND even allows you to attack at +12 against all of them.

IceBear