Cleave at the end of a charge....

[melkoriii]

Then I ask again - in the case of a "-10 penalty to the attack", given that "the attack" is a class object, should you not apply that penalty to every property of the object?

If not, then how do you know which property to apply it to?

-Hyp.

With the TWF and a Cleave or AoO. It is not subject to the TWF penalties as it is one attack and it says regular attacks referring to the full attack action. Both Cleave and AoO are not regular attacks.

Also in this case it is refering to the "attack" property. As the program is smart in knowing if it refers to the object attack or the property attack. the object it self can not be -10 but the attack property of the object can and so applies it there.

 

[Hypersmurf]

With the TWF and a Cleave or AoO. It is not subject to the TWF penalties as it is one attack and it says regular attacks referring to the full attack action. Both Cleave and AoO are not regular attacks.

Wait, what? This is not the question I was asking, but I'm going to jump on your answer anyway... you're saying now that the Cleave attack is made at the same bonus as initial attack, except that TWF penalties don't apply? You think a Charge bonus or a Smite Evil bonus carries into the Cleave, but TWF doesn't?

You make no sense.

Also in this case it is refering to the "attack" property. As the program is smart in knowing if it refers to the object attack or the property attack. the object it self can not be -10 but the attack property of the object can and so applies it there.

But your argument is that when Cleave references "the same bonuses as the attack", that it refers to every property of the attack object. I'm asking why the "-10 penalty to the attack[/i] doesn't apply to every property - including Damage bonus - as well.

-Hyp.

 

[melkoriii]

But your argument is that when Cleave references "the same bonuses as the attack", that it refers to every property of the attack object. I'm asking why the "-10 penalty to the attack[/i] doesn't apply to every property - including Damage bonus - as well.

When calling the bonuses of a object as in "same bonuses(properties) as the attack(object)", You get all bonuses.

When appling bonuses to the object "-10 penalty(amount) to the attack(Property)", You get a -10 attack roll and thats it.

Wait, what? This is not the question I was asking, but I'm going to jump on your answer anyway... you're saying now that the Cleave attack is made at the same bonus as initial attack, except that TWF penalties don't apply? You think a Charge bonus or a Smite Evil bonus carries into the Cleave, but TWF doesn't?

Actauly looking at this situation, The Cleave would have the same bonuses as its parent attack. (if it was the second attack in a Full attack action it would have a the -5, if it was a TWF it would have the -2, if it was the off hand it would have .5x Str added to damage and so on.)

Granted this add a lot of thinking added to useing Cleave but Im just saying how it is worded this is the way it should be (not nessisarly what they intended but thats not my place I just read the rules and it make sence to me.)

 

[RigaMortus]

Benefit: If the character deals a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points, killing it, etc.), the character gets an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature in the immediate vicinity

If I have the Knockdown feat, do 10 points of damage, and make my "free" Trip attack (which is successful), do I get to Cleave? I have effectively dealt enough damage to make the creature "drop".

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Cleave at the end of a charge....

If I have the Knockdown feat, do 10 points of damage, and make my "free" Trip attack (which is successful), do I get to Cleave? I have effectively dealt enough damage to make the creature "drop".

The second printing of Sword and Fist specifically forbids it in the description of Knockdown, from memory. You should be able to find it in the S&F errata if you have a first printing.

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus]

What about other instances where you would deal someone damage and effectivelt "drop" them (but not necessarily knock them out, kill them, drop them below 0 hp)? I can't think of anything specific at this time, but I am sure there are other ways to "drop" your opponent in a non-fatal manner and squeeze a Cleave out of it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What about other instances where you would deal someone damage and effectivelt "drop" them (but not necessarily knock them out, kill them, drop them below 0 hp)?

As you say - knocking them out. Bringing their subdual total above their current hit points is a way of dealing damage and dropping them that isn't "dropping it to below 0 hit points" or "killing it".

If you look for Cleave loopholes too hard, DMs will growl at you.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

A word on when you can cleave: any time you knock them unconcious, or to 0 effective HP. So you could cleave if you knock them to 0 hp, negative hp, subdual=remaining hp, or subdual over hp. In the case of being at 0, they aren't even dead or even out of the fight, but you did knock them down.

On bonuses of the cleave attack: the semantic arguement of "same bonuses as the previous attack" vs "same attack bonuses" is rather silly. I think it is clear that the damage bonus was not intended to be confered to the cleave strike. Melkoriii, I like programing. But OO methodology, like physics, have little use in D&D. I would be far too scared of a UML diagram of the system *shudder*

On what bonuses you get, the sage ruled true strike and, by extention, smiting attack bonuses to attack don't continue to the cleave attack. True strike and smite don't work because they are magic, and state they only work on one attack. Charge does not contain language that clear.