Cleave - Automatic hits on 2nd target?

[N0Man]

Some people forget that D&D isn't like an unattended videogame where players can find ridiculous exploits.

This "problem" isn't a problem, unless the DM creates a ridiculous situation in the first place that allows it to be a problem. People complaining about this being a problem is like when people raised a fuss when the Minion article came up and said things like, "but level 1 players can go find a level 20 minion and get lots of XP if they keep attacking until someone rolls a 20 and deals damage!"

 

[Nifft]

That seems really stupid to me. You have an impossible to hit creature, so you place a weakling next to it and suddenly you can damage it? Despite the fact you weren't really aiming for it, your concentration is on the weakling?

Because there are no more impossible to hit creatures. If you're fighting within your level range, you should be able to hit even high-AC critters often enough to make this a bad strategy.

However, if you ever find yourself missing on a 19, it's time to run away. The critter you are missing won't be missing you.

Cheers, -- N

 

[WhatGravitas]

However, if you ever find yourself missing on a 19, it's time to run away. The critter you are missing won't be missing you.

And probably won't care about some piddly extra damage as well.

Cheers, LT.

 

[bardolph]

I don't have the books so the above might be off by a bit, but my main question is does that adjacent target automatically take damage? I really hope not. I can imagine the ridiculous situation where you have some near impossible to hit creature, like a diamond golem or something, and even though you have no hope of hitting the thing directly, you line up kobolds next to it, swing into a kobold and then do auto damage on the golem.

Silly sounding yes, but if cleave works as automatic hits then a nasty boss npc shouldn't surround himself with minions (which I think is entirely what they were designed for).

It's not as ridiculous as you imagine it.

• If your fighter is hoping to take down an Elite monster using only splash damage from Cleave, he will lose.
• Why would your fighter waste so much damage on a minion? He's much better off swinging at the elite, and Cleaving the minion.
• Minions often have comparable AC to their elite leaders. Swinging at minions isn't going to improve your chances of hitting all that much.
• Reaping strike is a better at-will power for guaranteed damage.
• Casters can do splash and miss damage, why not melee too?

 

[Danceofmasks]

Because there are no more impossible to hit creatures. If you're fighting within your level range, you should be able to hit even high-AC critters often enough to make this a bad strategy.

However, if you ever find yourself missing on a 19, it's time to run away. The critter you are missing won't be missing you.

Cheers, -- N

Some people think pink ninjas make for great "roleplaying."
You know, those folks that buy 14, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, put a 13 in their main stat and take a race that pumps a tertiary, refuse to upgrade their weapons and armor, and walk around saying, "hey look! I have this great concept ..."

 

[Nifft]

Some people think pink ninjas make for great "roleplaying."
You know, those folks that buy 14, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, put a 13 in their main stat and take a race that pumps a tertiary, refuse to upgrade their weapons and armor, and walk around saying, "hey look! I have this great concept ..."

I don't know any of those people, so I suspect a strawman, but ... if they do exist, they may find 4e to be a poor choice of game.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Regicide]

My only beef with this is not that it does damage, but that it *automatically* does damage and doesn't make any sense why it should.

Theres your problem, you think 4E is supposed to make sense in a vaguely real-life with fantasy tacked on sort of way. It's not. You need to watch more children's cartoons, things like Naruto and Dragonball which will demonstrate the ridiculous concepts of automatic hits and healing surges.

 

[Destil]

You have an impossible to hit creature

Natural 20. No such thing in the rules. Resistance can give you an impossible to damage creature...

 

[Danceofmasks]

I don't know any of those people, so I suspect a strawman, but ... if they do exist, they may find 4e to be a poor choice of game.

Cheers, -- N

I went to a Living Greyhawk game day sometime in 2004 (I think), and there was this guy with a level 5 bard/druid/wizard/sorcerer/cleric.
He had lots of fun, but I refuse to party with him every again, on account of the illegality of PVP meaning I can't put him down.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

That seems really stupid to me. You have an impossible to hit creature, so you place a weakling next to it and suddenly you can damage it? Despite the fact you weren't really aiming for it, your concentration is on the weakling?

How is that not a problem?

Play a few sessions. You'll see.