Cleave - Automatic hits on 2nd target?

[Ninja-to]

Reading through the Cleave power it says if you hit your main target (I think you have to hit, don' have books with me) then you also do 5 dmg plus strength or something on an adjacent target.

I don't have the books so the above might be off by a bit, but my main question is does that adjacent target automatically take damage? I really hope not. I can imagine the ridiculous situation where you have some near impossible to hit creature, like a diamond golem or something, and even though you have no hope of hitting the thing directly, you line up kobolds next to it, swing into a kobold and then do auto damage on the golem.

Silly sounding yes, but if cleave works as automatic hits then a nasty boss npc shouldn't surround himself with minions (which I think is entirely what they were designed for).

 

[BeauNiddle]

Yes it auto hits.

Yes it's only STR damage

Yes thats exactly the same as Reaping Strike but without the chance of doing more damage.

No it's not a problem

 

[Mr. Wilson]

If you hit the first target you deal 1w+str damage to that creature, then you automatically deal str damage to an enemy adjacent to you.

 

[Ninja-to]

Yes it auto hits.

Yes it's only STR damage

Yes thats exactly the same as Reaping Strike but without the chance of doing more damage.

No it's not a problem

That seems really stupid to me. You have an impossible to hit creature, so you place a weakling next to it and suddenly you can damage it? Despite the fact you weren't really aiming for it, your concentration is on the weakling?

How is that not a problem?

 

[Rhianni32]

The same could be said though on boss tactics when any class has automatic damage not just when a fighter approaches.

 

[Rhianni32]

That seems really stupid to me. You have an impossible to hit creature, so you place a weakling next to it and suddenly you can damage it? Despite the fact you weren't really aiming for it, your concentration is on the weakling?

How is that not a problem?

Why exactly is a the Gm putting in impossible to hit creatures?
If its a BBEG is it really afraid to get into the fight because it might take 4 or so damage?
Lastly, this mechanic sounds stupid in description I agree but it allows the fighter to contribute damage at some level just as other classes with "Miss: you still do some damage" abilities.

 

[Ninja-to]

Why exactly is a the Gm putting in impossible to hit creatures?
If its a BBEG is it really afraid to get into the fight because it might take 4 or so damage?
Lastly, this mechanic sounds stupid in description I agree but it allows the fighter to contribute damage at some level just as other classes with "Miss: you still do some damage" abilities.

My only beef with this is not that it does damage, but that it *automatically* does damage and doesn't make any sense why it should. I can see combats where the big bad NPC is afraid of standing next to minions because he might get cleaved, but can go toe-to-toe with the fighter without much fear because he has some incredbile AC or special ability... it's just hypothetical but it's so stupid it's laughable to auto hit something when you can't hit it by aiming at it.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Despite the fact you weren't really aiming for it, your concentration is on the weakling?

How is that not a problem?

It isn't, because you operate under the assumption that minions are significantly easier to hit.

ACs of minions are usually on-par with the ACs of other monsters of the same level. Minions are intended to be used with monsters of similar level - and hence similar defenses. In such cases, it is more sensible to hit the big guy and kill the minion with the cleave damage than the other way round, as both are about equally difficult to hit.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Obryn]

My only beef with this is not that it does damage, but that it *automatically* does damage and doesn't make any sense why it should. I can see combats where the big bad NPC is afraid of standing next to minions because he might get cleaved, but can go toe-to-toe with the fighter without much fear because he has some incredbile AC or special ability... it's just hypothetical but it's so stupid it's laughable to auto hit something when you can't hit it by aiming at it.

(1) The easiest way for a DM to avoid silly situations like this is not to have silly situations like this.

(2) 4 damage will be a drop in a bucket compared to their HPs. If your only hope is to cleave a minion 100 times to get through, realism is the least of your problems.

(3) Resist All still works, should you need a completely invulnerable BBEG.

-O

 

[the8bitdeity]

In such cases, it is more sensible to hit the big guy and kill the minion with the cleave damage than the other way round, as both are about equally difficult to hit.

Cheers, LT.

Um, I was under the impression indirect cleave damage would not kill a minion.