Cleric/Druid Question

[moritheil]

What does it take to power-up a cleric?

Err.....waking up in the morning?

I found the most mileage out of the feats Divine Metamagic (quicken) and Divine Spell Power. Pretty much any Clr combo is made *much* better with these two.

I must admit, I stayed away from Persistent spells because...<hangs head in embarrassment>...that was too cheesy even for me.

Just to offer another perspective, I find Divine Metamagic (Persistent) to be really tame when compared to some of the things that are possible with DSP*. DSP and DSP alone turns your cleric into a walking "I win" button.

*DSP RAW, not houseruled.

 

[mikebr99]

Just to offer another perspective, I find Divine Metamagic (Persistent) to be really tame when compared to some of the things that are possible with DSP*. DSP and DSP alone turns your cleric into a walking "I win" button.

*DSP RAW, not houseruled.

... I don't know about tame... my 16th level Cleric had an amazing time with DM persistent righteous wrath of the faithful (so did the party) and divine power.

Granted, the DM (newbe) wanted a cheeze filled campaign...

Divine metamagic can be tame with the lower point buy games.

Mike

 

[moritheil]

... I don't know about tame... my 16th level Cleric had an amazing time with DM persistent righteous wrath of the faithful (so did the party) and divine power.

Granted, the DM (newbe) wanted a cheeze filled campaign...

Divine metamagic can be tame with the lower point buy games.

Mike

It's not that divine metamagic isn't powerful - it's that that power pales in comparison to the ability to walk into a fight and say "Okay, first round? All my enemies die. No saves. They just die. If they're undead, they are destroyed. They have SR? I can roll a 1 and still penetrate it. They die. End of fight."

Hence, the "I win" button analogy.

 

[mikebr99]

It's not that divine metamagic isn't powerful - it's that that power pales in comparison to the ability to walk into a fight and say "Okay, first round? All my enemies die. No saves. They just die. If they're undead, they are destroyed. They have SR? I can roll a 1 and still penetrate it. They die. End of fight."

Hence, the "I win" button analogy.

Are you talking about Holy word? DSP can only add a max of 4 caster levels... you need to get your CL 11 over the HD of your opponents to kill them outright. I do realize that automatic paralyzation does pretty much equal death...

Mike

 

[moritheil]

Are you talking about Holy word? DSP can only add a max of 4 caster levels... you need to get your CL 11 over the HD of your opponents to kill them outright. I do realize that automatic paralyzation does pretty much equal death...

Mike

Look very closely at the rules text. DSP RAW* is a free action, and there is no limit to the number of attempts in one turn. Futhermore, all of those attempts apply to the next spell you cast. DSP can add a max of 4 caster levels each time you activate the feat and use a turn attempt. Blow lots of turn attempts. Voila.

Even if you only want to use one turn attempt, you can rock out with bead of karma, incense, orange ioun stone, and some other stuff that I can't recall offhand to add a +9 or +10 to your caster level before DSP gets factored in. +11 CL over HD is no problem.

*I realize that DMs tend to houserule this. Thus, a few posts back, I was careful to specify DSP RAW.

 

[mikebr99]

Look very closely at the rules text. DSP RAW* is a free action, and there is no limit to the number of attempts in one turn. Futhermore, all of those attempts apply to the next spell you cast. DSP can add a max of 4 caster levels each time you activate the feat and use a turn attempt. Blow lots of turn attempts. Voila.

Even if you only want to use one turn attempt, you can rock out with bead of karma, incense, orange ioun stone, and some other stuff that I can't recall offhand to add a +9 or +10 to your caster level before DSP gets factored in. +11 CL over HD is no problem.

*I realize that DMs tend to houserule this. Thus, a few posts back, I was careful to specify DSP RAW.

Sure DSP is a free action... and it doesn't say in there that it can't be used more then once per round. But it also doesn't state anywhere that the bonus to caster levels would stack with multiple uses... the default answer is that bonuses do not stack with themselves.

Mike

 

[moritheil]

But it also doesn't state anywhere that the bonus to caster levels would stack with multiple uses... the default answer is that bonuses do not stack with themselves.

Mike

I believe that two different uses of DSP are two different things. The bonuses are not typed, after all, and "untyped bonuses always stack." I realize that that is a reasonable interpretation, though, which is why I provided the other route to getting +11 CL.

The only real limit on this power is the range of holy word and its variants: a mere 40 ft. Of course, divine metamagic can come into play here, widening it to 80 ft, though then you have to worry about obliterating your allies as well.

 

[mikebr99]

I believe that two different uses of DSP are two different things. The bonuses are not typed, after all, and "untyped bonuses always stack." I realize that that is a reasonable interpretation, though, which is why I provided the other route to getting +11 CL.

The only real limit on this power is the range of holy word and its variants: a mere 40 ft. Of course, divine metamagic can come into play here, widening it to 80 ft, though then you have to worry about obliterating your allies as well.

How are they different? And a bonus that isn't named stacks with any other bonus... that in no way trumps the:

Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells.

And activating a karma bead is a std. action... so unless you know what is coming and when... you'll have to wait till the 2nd round to kill everything.

Mike

 

[kjenks]

The only real limit on this power is the range of holy word and its variants: a mere 40 ft. Of course, divine metamagic can come into play here, widening it to 80 ft, though then you have to worry about obliterating your allies as well.

Widen Spell doesn't do anything to Holy Word because Widen just changes the area, and you need to change both the area and the range to get any effect past 40 ft. (Same with Sculpt Spell.)

Enlarge Spell doesn't do anything to Holy Word because the range is not Close, Medium or Long.

 

[moritheil]

How are they different? And a bonus that isn't named stacks with any other bonus... that in no way trumps the:

Hmm, are you one of those people that rules that multiple similar items don't stack even if they are different items? Such as two orange ioun stones?

And activating a karma bead is a std. action... so unless you know what is coming and when... you'll have to wait till the 2nd round to kill everything.

Mike

That's what divinations are for. And the karma bead lasts for 10 minutes, doesn't it? Maybe your first fight in enemy territory doesn't benefit from it, but you can nuke the hapless enemies in the second fight who were drawn by the ruckus of the first fight.

Even without the karma bead, you still have more than a +6 to CL, and by your own admission that is enough to end most fights in one round.

Even if you don't feel that this tactic is essentially foolproof (and it isn't, if your BBEGs are clever enough), do you agree that we are discussing something on a level of power that is fundamentally different from merely having persistent divine power up all day? The divine persistent metamagic user just gets better at combat. The DSP user flat-out wins instantly.