Cleric Race?

[Arcturus_Rugend]

Trading two mental abilities for strength isn't the same thing as trading strength for two mental abilities. To use an analogy, I can take an old car and 20,000 dollars to a dealership and get a new car for that. I can't take a new car to a dealership and get an old car and 20,000 dollars for it.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'd have to go with Particle Man on this one. If you go by the PHB, trading two mental abilities for STR is EXACTLY the same as vice versa. I don't think taking a hit on a physical ability that affects EVERYTHING physical that a character does is unbalanced with a bonus on 2 non-physical attributes that only affect certain activities. To use your example, of the Ardakene race, that character would certainly excel at spell use and turning udead, but he would make a poor melee combatant, not be able to carry as much, and need to watch HP's and Fort. saves more closely. Yes, he would excel at being a non-melee cleric, but that doesn't seem broken to me.

(As an aside, in some dealerships you CAN trade a new car in for an older car and 20 grand. You won't get as good of a deal this way, obviously, but I'm not sure how this relates to the whole ability dicussion anyway, as the ability scores rarely suffer from instant depreciation as you drive them off the lot. )

 

[Technik4]

Cleric is considered by many to be the most powerful class in the phb. I think it is in small part intentional, as every race is supposed to have clerics.

As for who makes the "best" clerics? As others have pointed out, domains are more important than race (as long as we're sticking to ECL +0 to+3 range). Depending on what other books you have or what campaign you are playing in, clerics have the capacity to be the most diverse class, at lower levels.

Forgotten Realms:
Straight Clerics

Drow Cleric of Eilistraee (Moon and Portal)
Elven Cleric of Solonor Thelandira (War and Elf)
Dwarven Cleric of Clangeddin Silverbeard (Strength and War)
Gnome Cleric of Callarduran Smoothhands (Cavern and Craft)
Halfling Cleric of Shela Peryroyl (Air and Charm)
Human Cleric of Thoth (Rune and Magic)
Human Cleric of Red Knight (Planning and War)

Muticlass Clerics

Drow Cleric/Rogue of Eilistraee (Drow and Elf)
Elven Cleric/Rogue of Labelas Enoreth (Elf and Time)
Gnome Cleric/Wizard of Baravar Cloakshadow (Gnome and Illusion)
Human Cleric/Rogue of Beshaba (Fate and Trickery)


Etc Etc. If you look at the new domains and read about the gods (there is a web enhancement for Faiths and Pantheons that goes into the minor gods in greater detail) you should be able to make any kind of cleric you want. There is no "ultimate" god, I personally suggest thinking of a character first, then decide who that character would worship (along general lines) then decide which provides the best domains for what you want, etc etc.

Any god can have great clerics, and any race can worship a lot of gods.

Technik

 

[greycastle]

well...oddly enough it's been decided....

Human Cleric of Lathander (hoping to become a Divine Deciple, and Heirophat later on)

Nobility and Renewal Domains (both very good at early levels) and gaining Sun domain once i gain the Divine Deciple.
- Nobility has a rather nifty ability, and gives some very nice spells
- Renewal is a must have at lower levels, meaning if i drop below 0, i get back 1d8+2 hp, 1. stabilizing me, 2. possibly pitting me BACK into action instantly...it's not even that bad at higher levels if your luck to not be dropped below -10
- Sun domain is great, but i found not ALL that useful in the lower levels *but this is only from looking over it* and this was just one of the reasons i tookd DD as it was a choice between nobility or sun domain...this way i get all three ^_^

I chose human because they suffer no penalties *that i can visibly see* i can choose almost any god from the 'normal' pantheon and i don't seem to suffer in any area particularly...not to mention my Spellcasting isn't hindered by any ECL +1 - +3...

Any advice?

 

[danielinthwolvesden]

OHG! Greycastle- that is EXACTLy the character I am running in a "RttToEE" game set in the realms. Down to the PRC and the domain I want when I get there! (I am at 6th, now, and I hope close to 7th. 8th will be the DD PRC)

I took Militia as one of my Regional feats, allowing me to use a longspear, for reach and AoO's. Extra turning, etc.

 

[krunchyfrogg]

Human Cleric of Tymora.

Take Travel and Luck, two of the best domains out there.

Human gives you that extra feat, and an extra skill point/level -- something the cleric class is very low on to begin.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Then I assume you are in the camp that thinks that the half-orc is underpowered for gaining +2 STR and -2 to INT and CHR?

No, a bonus in STR is much better than a penalty (after all, halflings get -2 STR and noone complains). Fact is that you can downplay your penalty and emphasize your bonus. The halforc barbarian will have not much need of INT or CHA, but will gain much from high STR (he also can put a 12 in both and come out even).

A halfling can downplay that low STR by taking finesse, shooting with ranged weapons (maybe even the crossbow) and depending on sneak attack for damage. It still hurts him, but his dex evens it out.

But, if you give a race +2 WIS and +2 CHA, they get much more than they lose with -2 STR.

Every race is better at some classes than at others.

Better, but it isn't so extreme.

Halflings make better "skill oriented" rogues, for example. That by itself does not make a race over-powered.

They have one bonus that helps them with their skills. But would they still be balanced if they also got +2 Int?

So the fact that one race is better at being a "spell-oriented" cleric, but worse at being a "hack n slash" fighter does not make that race overpowered. Indeed, the whole point of this thread was to find races that were better for the cleric class.

He would be better at being a spell-oriented cleric with wis alone. Give him CHA on top of that and it's to good without level adjustment.

I think the Forest Gnome is about right at +0 ECL.

Not with two bonuses and only one penalty

 

[Particle_Man]

Well I guess we will just have to disagree on this one.

I will point out that if one assumes that the standard PHB gnome is balanced (at -2str and +2con), and one takes ElderBasilisk's comments that a -2 con penalty is balanced by a +2 wis and +2 chr, then putting those together you get the forest gnome stats (-2 str, +2 wis, +2 chr). But you may not accept that -2 con is balanced by +2 wis and +2 chr.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Well I guess we will just have to disagree on this one.

I will point out that if one assumes that the standard PHB Rogue is balanced (at -2str and +2con),

Gnome

and one takes ElderBasilisk's comments that a -2 con penalty is balanced by a +2 wis and +2 chr,

Don't think so. IMO, you need to bad scores to make up for two good ones

then putting those together you get the forest gnome stats (-2 str, +2 wis, +2 chr). But you may not accept that -2 con is balanced by +2 wis and +2 chr.

Jepp.

 

[Particle_Man]

Don't think so. IMO, you need to bad scores to make up for two good ones

"two bad scores"


I guess this is where we disagree. I think that a bonus/penalty in a strength is about the same as a bonus/penalty in two mental scores. But that is just me (and most Kalamar fans). Others may differ. I don't think that the extra CHR is going to "break" the forest gnome spell-casting cleric, since while CHR is handy for some things (undead, some skills), it is WIS that drives the cleric. I do know that halfings and gnomes do have to be very careful with encumbrance, because of the double whammy of strength and size penalties on how much they can carry. But this may not be important in some campaigns.

But then, if we are only talking about differences of opinion, then I suppose it would be up to the individual DM as to what races to allow or not allow. No one has to allow a D&D Forest Gnome. For that matter, no one has to allow a D&D Elf, Halfling, Gnome, Dwarf, Half-Elf or Half-Orc. But as far as the rules go, the Forest Gnome is a legal D&D race, since Kenzerco is allowed to slap the D&D logo on their Kalamar products, in addition to the d20 logo. So I respect that you believe it to be overpowered, but it is written with the bonuses and penalties as listed in an official D&D product. Since this is the Rules forum, and since the original poster wanted to know about possible D&D races (before settling on human), I decided to share it. Whether the original poster's DM would allow such a race is of course up to that DM. Unless you are the original poster's DM, I assume that what you would allow and would not allow would have little bearing on the other DM's decision, just as what I would allow and would not allow would have little bearing on the other DM's decision.

Peace out!

 

[greycastle]

Well...personally...

Humans rock...

After our first session this week, in a group of various races, my human cleric came out on top ^_^....well, sure i did die once, after taking 5 guys on my own, while the rest of the group seemed intent on focusing on only two...but my Renewal brought me back, and with Cleave,i was able to nock one down with a critical, then the second with another critical![DM Note: rolled 20, 19, 20, 16]...then i was lucky for having so much armour, as i nocked the other 3 down slowly, and everyone else seeminly seemed content to jstu watch *bewildered look*...

But on another note, the human characters with their earnest scores, and not much above average, came out on top in every area we played, while those specified wiht abilitie scores, and special nifty features weren't even all that helpful in certain situations....


Well, thanks once again...

Duke of Columbina, Greycastle, Guitar Maestro, Renewal Expert.