Cleric: Social Outcast or Village Priest?

[Imp]

One aspect of my low-ish magic setting is that clerics (and other divine classes) are scattered throughout their mostly expert-classed priesthoods... however, their divine powers may desert them from time to time, leaving them unable to cast real spells for months, years, decades at a time. So clerics can't count on being fully powered clerics their whole lives. It comes and goes.

I assume that, for PCs, clerical divine powers are operative for the duration of their adventure. I don't use this to screw around players. But adventures are episodic, so there may be a year or two between quests, and the PC cleric's power may be said to recede during that time.

 

[Sejs]

Why would a church deny someone who is obviously gifted by divinity? "We worship X, but we shun those he favors." ?

Because they're a threat to your power structure.



(Priests): Listen to us, we speak for the gods.

(The Masses): *listen, tithe, adore*

(Spellcasting Cleric): Check me out, the gods gives me superpowers!

(The Masses): Umm... *looks at Spellcasting Cleric, looks back at Priests*

(Spellcasting Cleric): And I speak for the gods in a very quantifiable way.

(The Masses): *ignores Priests, listens to, tithes to, and heaps adoration on Spellcasting Cleric*

(Priests): ...bugger.

 

[drothgery]

I've always figured Cleric made more sense as the generic holy warrior class than as the "priest" class, and if I ever put together a setting it would work that way. I don't really like the "most priests are experts" thing for standard-magic-level D&D, so I think I'd cast most non-adventuring priests as adepts (typical for tribal shamans and others from disorganized religions), cloistered clerics (typical for most organized religions), archivists (typical of religions which place a lot of value on holy texts, ancient lore, and/or education) or wizards with the Arcane Disciple feat (typical of deities of magic).

 

[Wolfwood2]

I think it's perfectly possible that some divine spellcasting individuals will be outcast. I think you'll really have to stretch to say that all clerics are automatically going to be outcast.

One big issue is that the 'regular' priests are not immune to allure of a guy who has a direct pipeline to the gods. It may be a threat to their power, but the reason it's a threat to their power (the masses will listen to the spellcasting guy) also affects them (they too are going to be tempted to listen to the spellcasting guy). More likely the 'regular' priests are going to attempt to co-op the spellcasting cleric into their existing power structure and work with him, not against him.

No part of the cleric class implies getting regular divine visions or direct instructions from the god(s). You have to go to a few specific spells, mostly higher level, for that. So given that, unless the cleric is personally opposed to some huge aspects of the church's doctrine, I don't see why they wouldn't alllow themselves to be co-opted.

Of course, a lot of this is very world specific. How active/remote are the gods? How powerful are churches and how well-organized are they? Do clerics get their power from gods, or do they get their power from their faith in gods? (A very significant difference, I think.)

 

[fusangite]

Remthalis,

I really like your general thrust here. One thing I find absolutely exhausting in RPGs is the idea that the power of a god/faith is contingent on the number of adherents it has. This is just crap. So, the idea of the cleric being part of a religious movement that is unpopular, secretive or both seems to me a perfectly reasonable idea and one I already employ in my games.

As for your idea about the mainstream religions not being able to use much or any divine magic, there I don't think you're headed down the right path. For people who wish to pursue power, the lure of worshipping a real god rather than an ineffectual one would be very powerful so there is just no way, within the way the game is balanced, for it to ever be worthwhile to worship a false god in exchange for temporal power. Too much temporal power is conferred by worshipping a god who can give you spells.

 

[lukelightning]

I, too, like the idea of divine spellcasters (actually any spellcasters) as being rare. Eberron set this up well; most priests are NPC classes like experts or adepts (especially the divine adaption of the adept), or even *gasp* a commoner!

The problem is that if the PCs don't have access to a mid-level or higher cleric they can get scewed by disease, curses, ability damage/drain or energy drain. Eberron handles this by having widespread use of low-level magic and other sources of healing (the mark of healing, etc.).

I'm also glad that I'm running an Arcana Unearthed game, where clerics don't exist and many people are atheists. "Oh, a special person casting spells, claiming a god gave them magic? *yawn* I can do that from my study of arcane runes..."

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I'll go along with others. Clerics have to be rare and it should be a low-magic world (at least lower magic than FR).

People who wonder why people wouldn't follow someone with a direct pipeline to a deity, I ask, how do the people know? We as players know the difference between divine and arcane casting, but to a person sitting there watching the effects of a spell, how do they know? An arcane caster could just as easily declare that he has the power of the gods and all should listen to him, and perhaps that has happened and is what makes the people shun the clerics as well.

Perhaps the difference in people's attitude ends up coming from how the caster presents him or herself. Casters who occasionally do some casting for money, show up to save the town when needed, and otherwise leave the people alone may be accepted. Casters who come on the scene and tell people they should act a certain way, or believe certain things, especially if they are different than what the big powerful church tells them, are shunned.

You could in this sitation play clerics that behave more like a local hedge wizard and only begin to preach quietly to a select few who show greater interest in their work.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Interesting topic.

I have both sorts in my campaigns, generally . . . though 'generally' might be stretching things a bit, as I don't run, and don't plan to run, too many D&D-style campaigns all in all. As far as it goes though, it is more likely that actual Clerics (well, Templars or Priests in fact) are not a part of normal church/temple life etc. They are often not even affiliated with them.

But I can see a lot of potential both ways.

 

[hafrogman]

One thought that came to mind as people were discussing this.

What if "generic priests" are representatives of the entire pantheon. There is one religion that reveres and worships all the gods at once. The clerics are clearly the chosen of a single diety, and favoring one too much might aggravate the other gods.

 

[Rolzup]

As I'm doing it....

There is a Church. Several, actually, but there's one that's particularly pervasive and powerful. And alliterative, apparently.

Clerics are not a part of this church, and in point of fact clerical magic (Theurgy) is considered blasphemous and heretical, grounds for immediate execution in some parts of the world. The Church does have associated spellcasters; largely wizards, some Duskblades, and suchlike...just devout believers, in most cases. Their god, Shar, does not speak directly to his worshippers, and does not grant them any kind of magic.

Clerics do exist, though. Each worships a single, unique god -- a "Dead God", forgotten by the rest of the world. THe cleric contacts this diety, and a soert of symbiotic relationship is established; the cleric sustains the god with his faith, the god rewards the cleric's faith with power. As his faith grows stronger, so does the power granted to him.

Informally, at least, I'm thinking that Shar does not grant spells and such because he is unable. So many worshippers, all with their own prayers and desires, most of them contradictory -- it's impossible to satisfy them all. Clerics, though, have the total attention of their god.... On the other hand, Shar can work Big Miracles when needed, things far beyond the powers of even the mightiest Dead God.

Healing magic, therefore, isn't particularly common. It's available to those willing to pay, and to risk excommunication, but it generally takes some searching. Any kind of resurrection is blasphemy of the highest order, not to mention illegal. Not to say that it doesn't happen, mind...just that if it does, it needs to be kept secret.

Still need to work out some of the details, but I'm pretty happy with it. Mechanically, there's no real change; it's all social and background stuff.