Cleric: Social Outcast or Village Priest?

[Klaus]

I take the Eberron approach.

Priests are usually experts. Some of them can cast spells, and are adepts. But a few show a gift for using divine magic, being trained in the arts of war as the knights of the faith, capable of defending their religion with strength and spell: the clerics.

Hierarchy within the churches is a matter of politics and philosophy, not level. The 19th-level adventuring cleric, capable of casting Miracle, can bow to the 4th-level expert that is the head of the church.

 

[painandgreed]

How do you view spellcasting clerics in your game?

IMC, pretty much every village has a cleric that gets tithes and preforms free healing as well as religious teachings for the people of the village. Or rather, I should say that every lord has an associated cleric that he has assigned to look over his lands and people as well as offer guidence and they form the basis of the government. For leagal issues, the clerics cast Zone of Turth and the lord acts as judge. For military matters, which includes wandering monsters, the lord gathers his men and then cleric gathers his alcolytes and they go try to solve the problem.

Clerics that haven't been recognised by the lords are often outcasts. Although most lords will not want to offend a cleric of a similar or allied god and may provide food and lodging, they typically are not allowed to solicit money or at least are not granted such. Clerics of less favorable gods are either run out or even hunted down and killed. These clerics must hide and operate in secret. Sometime they are supported by the local population and sometimes they act alone or part of a secret society.

 

[Sarellion]

Remthalis,

As for your idea about the mainstream religions not being able to use much or any divine magic, there I don't think you're headed down the right path. For people who wish to pursue power, the lure of worshipping a real god rather than an ineffectual one would be very powerful so there is just no way, within the way the game is balanced, for it to ever be worthwhile to worship a false god in exchange for temporal power. Too much temporal power is conferred by worshipping a god who can give you spells.

If I understood correctly he wanted the same religion and a few clerics outside the main branch who are clerics, perhaps by following more mystical teachings.

As for why the mainstream priests don´t follow simply the clerical branch? It could be that the deity doesn´t accept everyone or you have to submit to a strict way of life or you need to have a certain kind of personality.

 

[Mercule]

I like the idea of pushing clerics (or a non-martial priestly caster) to the fringes. Any setting in which the gods are fiddling with the world at even the rate that making Adept the standard clergy would quickly collapse under it's own weight, if not artificially supported by fiat. It also tends to minimize the potential for any abiguity in the afterlife or church politics.

The idea of making them outsiders would be incredibly cool and would probably have the desired effects.

 

[Andor]

Hierarchy within the churches is a matter of politics and philosophy, not level. The 19th-level adventuring cleric, capable of casting Miracle, can bow to the 4th-level expert that is the head of the church.

*snort* I really don't see any 4th level expert daring to give direction to someone capable of direct communion with his god and who can whistle up a solar any time he wants. Especially given that the 19th level cleric will probably have a knowledge religeon check better than twice that of the 4th level expert.

And why should the cleric bow? What's the expert going to do? Excommunicate him? If it doesn't work the cleric will know as soon as he casts his next spell and if it does, the god has lost his lost powerful champion. Why would the god want to do that?

 

[Klaus]

*snort* I really don't see any 4th level expert daring to give direction to someone capable of direct communion with his god and who can whistle up a solar any time he wants. Especially given that the 19th level cleric will probably have a knowledge religeon check better than twice that of the 4th level expert.

And why should the cleric bow? What's the expert going to do? Excommunicate him? If it doesn't work the cleric will know as soon as he casts his next spell and if it does, the god has lost his lost powerful champion. Why would the god want to do that?

To teach humility? If ranks in Knowledge (religion) were a prerequisite, sages would be the heads of churches, not priests.

The thing is, in Eberron there is *no* evidence that the gods exist, except faith. A god-less cleric can cast spells just as well as a god-ful cleric. So divine spellcasting isnt a yardstick. Even the outsiders (like the solar) haven't ever seen a deity. They are faithful, just like the mortals. So in this scenario, the 19th-level cleric actually *believes* that if the 4th-level expert is the head of the church it's because the god wanted it that way (if he supports the expert) or because he's very well connected within the church hierarchy (if he's skeptical of the expert).

 

[FolcoTook]

And why should the cleric bow? What's the expert going to do? Excommunicate him? If it doesn't work the cleric will know as soon as he casts his next spell and if it does, the god has lost his lost powerful champion.

Because the god has seen fit to select the 4th Lvl Expert to be his/her representative on the Material Plane. Why? Hey, we don't ask gods why.

Why would the god want to do that?

Because you have offended the god by not showing respect to his/her representative. If you are so brazen as to question the god's selection, then you have lost your faith and can no longer represent that god.

Just a possible answer.

<edit>Note that I don't play in an Eberron setting and don't know that setting very well, so my answer was tended to be more setting neutral.</edit>

-FT

 

[ThirdWizard]

While it makes for an interesting setting, I'm not sure it makes for a more interesting game, unless the PCs are into being persecuted and secretive about their powers. So, its heavily dependant on what kind of game you're looking to run and people are looking to play. I don't think there's anything inherently more or less realistic about either method, at least considering we're talking about D&D here.

 

[WayneLigon]

Most clerics are like religious orders of knighthood. They fight, and fight well, and have the backing of spellcasting. In my main campaign world, the (single) church is mainly composed of experts, commoners, and such. The attached knightly orders are the Clerics, though some are found in positions within the church. Most small villages will not have a true Cleric, though they will have a priest or such there of course. The followers of the Daughter send Clerics out to make round and heal what ills they can. The followers of the Son send some out to wander the land and rid it of evil monsters.

Paladins are like 'inquisitors'. They are are direct hands of the Son, who police his Order and the rest of the pantheon as well. They're the ones that will drag a venal or corrupt Church official out into the town square and lop his head off, or make him confess under the burning light of truth, or make him walk through the city parcelling out his hoarded riches to the poor.

 

[Wolfwood2]

To teach humility? If ranks in Knowledge (religion) were a prerequisite, sages would be the heads of churches, not priests.

The thing is, in Eberron there is *no* evidence that the gods exist, except faith. A god-less cleric can cast spells just as well as a god-ful cleric. So divine spellcasting isnt a yardstick. Even the outsiders (like the solar) haven't ever seen a deity. They are faithful, just like the mortals. So in this scenario, the 19th-level cleric actually *believes* that if the 4th-level expert is the head of the church it's because the god wanted it that way (if he supports the expert) or because he's very well connected within the church hierarchy (if he's skeptical of the expert).

You're overstating the case a mite, though. While heirarchy is more important than levels, levels are hardly meaningless. Power always commands respects, and a high level cleric is one of the most powerful people in the world, capable of miracles few others can duplicate. The cleric can't walk in and order the expert around purely on the basis of his power, but the expert isn't going to treat him like a 2nd level temple guard either. The cleric is one of the church's most powerful resources, and he will get cut a fair amount of slack and deference on that basis alone.

Moreover, even in Eberron those in charge tend to be a bit more impressive than "4th level expert" in any situation where merit is a factor in how far you rise. (Which is the case for most church positions, the Dragonmarked houses, and nearly anything except the highest levels of the nobility.) Even in the real world extraordinary talent rises to the top, and in Eberron extraordinary people are those capable of achieving mutliple class levels. Most of the true leader types tend to top out around mid-level (say 7th to 12th), which makes them pretty amazing in a world of 1st and 2nd levelers. It's just that 13+ tends to be the realm of the legendary.

I'll also note that only one Eberron religion can even be said to have a single leader, and the Keeper of the Flame recieves special powers from the Flame that make her an 18th level cleric when near it. (I suppose Olian the Grand Druid might count if you consider the Gatekeepers to be a religion.... and he's 20th level!)