cleric switching god

[BalazarIago]

That was funny, I mean, really funny.

 

[MoonZar]

I think that the best thing to happen would be this:

http://www.kenzerco.com/periodicals/fuzzyknights/fkonline050415.php

"Lathander, it's not you, it's me..."

hahahaah this was funny

 

[moritheil]

So I see this thread devolved into second-guessing the motivations of inscrutable, divine beings.

Admittedly, that was an improvement on the unrelated personal attacks. However, I don't think that that is a good field of argument, as every DM has their own way of running deities.

What we should do is put the focus back on the mechanics of changing deities. How many of you feel that the new deity has a say in how hard it is to change? How many of you think the old deity should have a say?

How long is an appropriate "punishment" or trial for a change in faith?

 

[MoonZar]

So I see this thread devolved into second-guessing the motivations of inscrutable, divine beings.

Admittedly, that was an improvement on the unrelated personal attacks. However, I don't think that that is a good field of argument, as every DM has their own way of running deities.

What we should do is put the focus back on the mechanics of changing deities. How many of you feel that the new deity has a say in how hard it is to change? How many of you think the old deity should have a say?

How long is an appropriate "punishment" or trial for a change in faith?

Personnaly i don't think the old deity have a word to say. Only the new god could choose how much time it will take, and what the priest have to do to join the new order.

The old god just lost a follower, he could be angry if he want and that's it...

 

[smootrk]

Personnaly i don't think the old deity have a word to say. Only the new god could choose how much time it will take, and what the priest have to do to join the new order.

The old god just lost a follower, he could be angry if he want and that's it...

I agree. Old deity has no say; other clergy members may have issues. New deity would dictate how much time/effort would be necessary to gain his/her favor. Though my house rule gives me the basic framework to work with in this regard. Again, I a flexible for the role-play events to ultimately decide the factors involved in re-advancing through the ranks.

 

[BalazarIago]

So I see this thread devolved into second-guessing the motivations of inscrutable, divine beings.

Admittedly, that was an improvement on the unrelated personal attacks. However, I don't think that that is a good field of argument, as every DM has their own way of running deities.

What we should do is put the focus back on the mechanics of changing deities. How many of you feel that the new deity has a say in how hard it is to change? How many of you think the old deity should have a say?

How long is an appropriate "punishment" or trial for a change in faith?

I am sorry if anyone took offense at my comments. They were not meant to be a personal attack or to belittle anyones skills as a roleplayer.

As for answers to your questions. I guess it would have to depend on how much work the Deity put into the day to day running of His church. Or would He leave such administra to the heirarchy of the Church or even to some of his Celestials. The way I rule it, is that Divine magic is supplied by the Deity, but he is rather busy and can't be bothered to pay too much attention on how that power is used. However, the use of those powers are policed. 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells are policed by the Church. They monitor the lower level spells because there are so many Priests below 7th level and it is easier for them. 4th and 5th level spells are monitored by the Celestial body of the Deity. They make sure sure that the powers are not wasted or misused. Level 6 and level 7 spells are monitored by the Deity. I don't suspect that there are very many priests of this level and if a priest of this level is tapping into that much power, the Deity is going to take notice.

That being said, the trials and tribulations of a low level priest might not register with the Deity, but the Church will most likely handle it all.

As to whether or not Lathander would take a hand in this, hard to say. Would want to know why Lathander turned his back on this priest in the first place. I doubt that if the Deity was not interested in saving the priest earlier, then He may not care what happens to the Priest now.

How long. That is hard to say. I might not put a time restriction on when the transition finally occurs, but when the Priest does something, or says something. Basically, when the priest has an epiphany. You can do all the right things, say all the right things, but you still have to feel it in your soul.

 

[ARandomGod]

I personally think that the old diety might indeed have a say. Depending, of course. The old diety wouldn't have any say on what it takes to be accepted by the new one, but the 'dumped' diety can and depending on personality possibly will inflict some sort of punishment.

On the other hand, I'm all for just allowing a switch altogether. It's all in fun, no problems.

On the gripping hand, however, it could even be houseruled that a clerical level is a level in worshiping the chosen god/power and attempting to switch would be akin to becoming a multiclass character. Cleric 5 (Lathander) cleric 10 (Tyr). In fact, that probably makes the most actual sense. It's not the god who's gaining levels in the character, it's the character who's gaining levels in the god. However I personally would ignore sence for playability in this case and just allow a switch.

 

[smootrk]

I too think of each Deity's Cleric almost as a class to itself. In my old 1st/2ed campaigns each 'God' had its own version of a cleric with completely different weapons, spell lists, and special abilities. A cleric of Thor would be quite different from a priestess of Aphrodite in more ways than just a few domain abilities. Some might seem closer to warrior than a typical priest; others might look indistiguishable from mages (if of a god of magic).

This one of the reasons for a houserule where the switching cleric has to learn (albeit much quicker pace) the rites, rituals, dogma, and 'abilties' granted to him by his/her new deity.

Now given the differing opinions expressed here, I have re-evaluated the pace of re-advancement. I would use newly gained xp's as valued as 1.5x normal for purposed of advancing the cleric until his effective clerical level equaled his actual cleric level... and I would use the level advancement chart as is.

IE. After gaining 1000 new XP as a character his 'effective clerical level would go up to level 2 (with 1500 effective xp). After gaining another 1000 xp as a character, his effective clerical level would be level 3 (with 3000 effective xp). This allows advancement of his effective clerical level, completely independantly of his actual character level, and at an extremely accelerated pace, especially if the character is higher level and is gaining xp according to his ECL.

I know, someone will strike this down as an option for whatever reason, but it is a compromise on my initial method that allows a much faster pace to regain the cleric's full status at his/her normal clerical level.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

What we should do is put the focus back on the mechanics of changing deities. How many of you feel that the new deity has a say in how hard it is to change?
How many of you think the old deity should have a say?

this is completely in the new deity's realm. No deity can ever force people to worship them. Free will cannot be taken away with this (sure, they can threaten and blackmail, but in the end, it's the worshippers decision). So the old one cannot say "you still have to worship me or you have to worship this or that deity now". But the new one can demand more or less anything from the cleric in order to grant him magic.

How long is an appropriate "punishment" or trial for a change in faith?

I say that the change of faith in instantaneous. But I think you mean "how long before he's a full-fledged cleric?"

I say, if you strip the cleric of most or even all magic until he has proven himself, a quest spanning one game session tops. If you grant him full spellcasting, but control him in other ways, like a quest spell, then it can be longer.

I don't argue that the priest went through a tremendous ordeal. I guess the main question I have here is what did the character expect his God to do? What would have had to happen for the priest to feel that his God had not abandoned him?

If he would have been rescued before his faith and spirit were broken, it would have been soon enough. Now we don't know how rigorous the torturing was, or how good the cleric was at bearing the pain, but "several months" was too much.

Of course, the rescuers might have had nothing to do with the deity in question. I don't really think that the gods actions or lack thereof are the problem here: The problem is that the guy was mentally scarred, which induced a change of personality. Lathander may not have been to blame for it all, but I still think that the decision was out of order, and I think that the gods involved will understand it - Lathander because he's benevolent and Tyr because he gets another priest out of this.

Come to think of it, if the Lathanderites hear of the trials their former colleague went through, they might not even be hostile towards him.

That would have to depend on how long it takes to manipulate the world to cause the desired effect. Having no experience with this, I will have to defer to others on this.

Well, in theory, Lathander could have sent a vision to the leading priest in the temple nearest the goblin lair. They would have assembled or hired a party of adventurers (there's enough of them around) and send them to the rescue. Depending on the circumstances, this could be done in a week.

Hrmmm, makes you wonder if Tyr arranged for the Priest to be captured and tortured so that his view of the world would be drastically changed and therefore want to join Tyr.

Wouldn't put it past him.

For the record, I don't see the actions of the Character as a sign of bad roleplaying. I think that the player is doing very well. But I do question if the player is playing a Cleric well. But that is mostly left up to opinion.

Well, a cleric is only a human(oid), too. They might be hardier and have more willpower than others, but even they have their limits.

I could see it either way: The cleric with legendary piety and endless willpower, who could spend a century being tortured by demons and still hold true to his god, or the cleric who has commandable, but limited resolve. Both are viable cleric models.

one thing I would expect to see from that priest would be to search out why. Why did his God forsake him. Why did his God ignore his pleas. This is something, as a priest, I would want to know. Did I do something wrong?

Again, we are talking about prolonged torture, and Lathander. Maybe the priest has asked himself what his errors were. Maybe he asked himself over and over again, for a whole week. A month. But finally he came to the conclusion that he has done nothing wrong - at least nothing so cruel and evil as to justify the ordeal he's going through, not if Lathander is the judge.

He is correct in this sense. I however may disagree somewhat over what exactly are the Deities responsibility. As I see it (again, another opinion), the deity's role has more to do with the final state of the believer's soul or spirit ( final salvation, eternal rest, petitioners, etc. - exact nature of which would depend on the mythos in question).

Of course, there is the question whether a tortured soul will find peace.

And since the deities are dependant on living followers, not just those already in their respective afterlives, they should take care of them both in life and death.

Correct me if i'm wrong, you seem to know well forgotten realms. Does the god power is proportionnal to the number of followers ? That would mean that the god should take care about his follower more then ever according to me.

Like others have already said: It's not just about the number of the followers, but also about your portfolio. Plus I think it's not just about quantity, but also about quality.

So the goddess of love will be strengthened by every love that blooms in the realms. She will also be strengthened by everyone offering her small prayers (like someone in love who offers her an orison for luck), but not as much as she gets from someone who chooses her as patron deity (everyone has to choose a patron deity, who has a special place in his/her heart, but you can also offer prayers to other deities in the right circumstances, like to Tyr for justice, Tempus before a battle, Tymora when you take a chance, or Waukeen before mercantile endeavour). And she'll get even more for a cleric, divine champion, cleric, and most for a heartwarden and True Believer.


Sure, this doesn't mean that the gods have to beg people for their worship, but ignoring followers and their blights is a surefire way to oblivion and divine impotence.

 

[MoonZar]

Like others have already said: It's not just about the number of the followers, but also about your portfolio. Plus I think it's not just about quantity, but also about quality.

So the goddess of love will be strengthened by every love that blooms in the realms. She will also be strengthened by everyone offering her small prayers (like someone in love who offers her an orison for luck), but not as much as she gets from someone who chooses her as patron deity (everyone has to choose a patron deity, who has a special place in his/her heart, but you can also offer prayers to other deities in the right circumstances, like to Tyr for justice, Tempus before a battle, Tymora when you take a chance, or Waukeen before mercantile endeavour). And she'll get even more for a cleric, divine champion, cleric, and most for a heartwarden and True Believer.


Sure, this doesn't mean that the gods have to beg people for their worship, but ignoring followers and their blights is a surefire way to oblivion and divine impotence.

This nice, this almost the same i run my gods in my campaign world...