Cleric vs. Favored Soul

[KarinsDad]

A Favored Soul, thanks to more spells per day, can really heal as well as a cleric, even without optimum spell choices for each available level.

I agree.

We have had two FSs in our various campaigns and they both shined pretty well. The downside, just like Clerics, is that they are considered the party medic and often do not get to do what they want to do in combat since they are busy healing.

However, they have another advantage over Clerics:


Spontaneous Metamagic


Cure Wounds spells benefit from metamagic a lot less than offensive spells since the variable dice is not dependent on level. However, even they can benefit a little. For example:

8th level Favored Soul with Empowered Spell feat could take Cure Critical Wounds as a choice for 4D8+8 ~= 26 points of healing. However, an Empowered Cure Moderate Wounds 1.5 * 2D8+8 ~= 25.5 points of healing. Granted, this has a range downside (i.e. you can only take a 5 foot step with it) and Cure Critical will eventually average 9.5 more points of healing (at 20th level). But as an out of combat heal, Empowered Cure Moderate is nearly as nice as Cure Critical at least through the mid-levels, saving a spell known.

This works even better for Empowered Cure Moderate Wounds Mass at 16th level (~37 each) versus Cure Critical Wounds Mass (~34 each). For out of combat healing, the metamagic version is slightly more powerful and it saves using up a known spell.


There are other metamagic feats that work real well for a Favored Soul as well. For example: Silent Spell. You might prevent one spell from a Favored Soul with Silence 15 foot radius, but you probably won't prevent a second spell that way.


And, divine casters get just enough offensive area effect energy spells (e.g. Flame Strike) that they can sort of be a backup arcane blaster with metamagicked versions of them. For example: Shaped Spell Flame Strike.


The problem is that FSs do not get additional feats in the first place. So, if they become a metamagic specialist, they will not be doing other things (like magic item crafting).

 

[Thanee]

For out of combat healing, unless you are in a rush, there is little that can compete with Mass Lesser Vigor.

At higher levels, the ability to spontaneously cast Heal is pretty big for healing purposes.

Bye
Thanee

 

[pawsplay]

The big problem with Favored Souls as cleric replacements is that they get no domains. Among other things, this means that unless you are using the Warlock, or someone employs wish or miracle, no one in the game world can make holy weapons. A lot of the signature Cleric spells are just gone, unless you choose to add them to the Favored Soul base list.

It sounds to me like the campaign premise is unique enough you might want to write your own base class, which I think would be similar to the favored soul, but perhaps drop the weapon focus for access to one or two Domains, and possibly giving them turn undead at the cost of, say, wings.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

But the real kick in the teeth though is needing BOTH wisdom and charima to be a good spell caster! What other core caster needs two stats for their spells? Unless you are using a really hight point buy (or rolling your stats when the DM isn't looking) you are not going to be a good caster and a good warrior.

I don't particularily see this as a problem. Most Favored Souls who pursue a strong melee role aren't going to also be wanting to cast significant battle spells because you can't do both in the same round anyway. So the melee Favored Souls won't necessarily need a decent WIS because if they aren't casting spells with saves ... who cares how bad the DC is?

Favored Souls who want to be a spell slinger and not a melee master need not worry about their physical attributes. Thus, they can afford a high WIS and CHA. Although to be honest ... to do this automatically means giving up on some class abilities like Weapon Focus, etc...

I agree - for the player that has to do it all (casting and melee) the necessary CHA/WIS does kinda hurt. But most players don't feel the need to do both unless they are in a high point buy game or roll very well.

I like the thought that was put up here earlier about increasing the FS's spell list by one for each level and forcing that to be Cure ____. After all, who player in there right mind would turn down receiving a Cure spell to add to their list of known spells for free?

If we are talking a bit about houserules, too - I personally try to avoid taking the class past level 15 simply because I hate the wings flavor. At that level, that's primarily all they are, too. They are flavor more than anything else. [Although natural wings in an area where magic doesn't work can be significant. But that's what the planar ally spells are for, right? ]

 

[Mistwell]

I personally feel the Favored Soul is a solidly viable class.

The only changes I would make to them is to give them Knowledge (Religion) instead of Knowledge (Arcane), and switch out the wings for something else (but that is such a high level that I doubt I will ever see a character of that level in this class anyway).

Other that that, they are a fine class. They are not a replacement Cleric, they are their own class with some unique aspects, and should hold their own quite well.

 

[KarinsDad]

I personally feel the Favored Soul is a solidly viable class.

The only changes I would make to them is to give them Knowledge (Religion) instead of Knowledge (Arcane), and switch out the wings for something else (but that is such a high level that I doubt I will ever see a character of that level in this class anyway).

Other that that, they are a fine class. They are not a replacement Cleric, they are their own class with some unique aspects, and should hold their own quite well.

I agree 100% both on the wings and the Knowledge.

I found it kind of dumb to give them Knowledge (Arcane). The proponents for this have indicated that since FSs do not get formal religious training, they should not get Knowledge (Religion), but that sounds like hooey to me. If they are so attached to their god, he could easily give them Knowledge (Religion).

 

[PallidPatience]

I found it kind of dumb to give them Knowledge (Arcane). The proponents for this have indicated that since FSs do not get formal religious training, they should not get Knowledge (Religion), but that sounds like hooey to me. If they are so attached to their god, he could easily give them Knowledge (Religion).

Ahhh. That makes so much sense. They have no time to learn about the religion belonging to the god they're supposedly chosen by, but they get to know stuff about how arcane magic works!

 

[Thanee]

Well, Knowledge (arcane) is a little more than knowing about arcane magic, it's knowledge about magic in general, so it does makes some sense for them to have it. They simply should have Knowledge (religion) in addition, and be it for the reason alone, that it is often a requirement for divine prestige classes or feats.

Just give them Knowledge (religion) as an additional class skill, and allow them to learn all spells that appear on their deity's domain spell lists.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dorloran]

The big problem with Favored Souls as cleric replacements is that they get no domains. Among other things, this means that unless you are using the Warlock, or someone employs wish or miracle, no one in the game world can make holy weapons. A lot of the signature Cleric spells are just gone, unless you choose to add them to the Favored Soul base list.

It sounds to me like the campaign premise is unique enough you might want to write your own base class, which I think would be similar to the favored soul, but perhaps drop the weapon focus for access to one or two Domains, and possibly giving them turn undead at the cost of, say, wings.

Well, I'd been thinking of tinkering with the FS, but of course, the concern is that 1) if you change them too much, they just become a cleric, and 2) I don't know how much tinkering to do before they become out of balance.

What would be the collective wisdom on tinkering? I really like the idea of trading weapon focus for a domain--would that be an equal trade or too powerful? Would you trade the class abilities for additional free feat slots? And how might you manage adding Turn Undead without overpowering the class? Make it a feat selection, also?

Thanks for all the great advice so far--it's really helped put things in perspective and given me an idea of how to shape my campaign around the absence of the cleric.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I really like the idea of trading weapon focus for a domain--would that be an equal trade or too powerful?

I think that would be fair. I realize that domains are more powerful than Weapon Focus - but if you are using the cleric as your power guide you still aren't going to match the fact that clerics get 2 domains. Maybe this is assumed, but you could always make the FS a multiple-choice:

1. FS gains Weapon Focus/Specialization as normal.

2. FS gains domain instead of Weapon Focus. That automatically makes Weapon Specialization void, so FS can gain second domain or Weapon Focus instead of Weapon Specialization.

Would you trade the class abilities for additional free feat slots?

Not all of them. The only ones I would mess with are Weapon Focus/Specialization (Which are already feats anyway) and the wings. The energy resistance is one of the few "Wow, this guy isn't a cleric" things about them. And the DR is useful in its own situations.

And how might you manage adding Turn Undead without overpowering the class? Make it a feat selection, also?

Again, I wouldn't. Let undead be lethal again. You don't want another cleric class to replace the cleric. If you give FSs Turn Undead, then they'll just be clerics with better saves and few spell choices. Especially if you also give the FSs domains as you mention above! I'd personally say let Turn Undead vanish from the game. I'd even be tempted to give paladins (and any other PrC that receives Turn Undead) something in place of their Turn Undead so that nobody can Turn Undead. To me, that would be an interesting twist to a cool game.

Thanks for all the great advice so far--it's really helped put things in perspective and given me an idea of how to shape my campaign around the absence of the cleric.

No problem, Threads like this bring great minds together and good advice.