Clerics can't heal (NPCs)?

[hong]

And as it was pointed out, even without a Second Wind ability those surges can be used, just not in combat.

Exactly.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

IIRC, Derren is not a native English speaker/reader. Maybe that explains his confusion.

Though he is (at least technically) correct so that there was no explicit mention of Second Winds available to NPCs. I am not sure if or how that's important, though. Fact still is - NPCs can be healed (even in combat) which means that their interaction with the PCs should pose no problems. The PC/NPC Interface works fine.

 

[Lacyon]

Its also an assumption that NPCs do get a Second Wind ability. Considering that it is rather official that PCs and NPCs are build according to different rules it means that just because the PCs have it the NPCs don't necessarily have it too. And as it was pointed out, even without a Second Wind ability those surges can be used, just not in combat.

Wrong. It's 100% official that NPCs use PC build rules any time the DM wants to put that much work into them. It's been stated over and over and over again from official sources. Which means at least some NPCs do get Second Wind.

If the "less work, not full-fledged hero" NPC rules don't give them Second Wind, or simplify it by just giving them some bonus hp instead, or whatever else, so be it.

Have you heared of any instance from DDXP where a monster healed itself with a Second Wind?

Nope. Then again, I _have_ heard of various monsters in playtest reports healing themselves.

 

[Derren]

Though he is (at least technically) correct so that there was no explicit mention of Second Winds available to NPCs. I am not sure if or how that's important, though. Fact still is - NPCs can be healed (even in combat) which means that their interaction with the PCs should pose no problems. The PC/NPC Interface works fine.

I never disputed that after Chris clarified it. But then somehow the discussion drifted (without my doing) to how PCs are better than NPCs and here Second Wind is important.

What is strange is that, as far as I know, no monster at the DDXP used Second Wind, so either this ability was left out or they indeed don't have this ability.

Nope. Then again, I _have_ heard of various monsters in playtest reports healing themselves.

And was it through Second Wind or a racial ability? We don't know.

 

[Green Knight]

Nope. Then again, I _have_ heard of various monsters in playtest reports healing themselves.

Just look at the Elite Bulette article which I linked to in my previous post. One of the Bulette's healed himself.

 

[Lacyon]

I never disputed that after Chris clarified it. But then somehow the discussion drifted (without my doing) to how PCs are better than NPCs and here Second Wind is important.

What is strange is that, as far as I know, no monster at the DDXP used Second Wind, so either this ability was left out or they indeed don't have this ability.

This is not at all strange. A Kobold Skirmisher gets back something like 7 HP from a healing surge. A PC is going to be doing more than that on average from a single hit. It's just not a great option for the kobold most of the time, compared to attacking and trying to bring down a PC (or make a PC spend his standard action healing instead of attacking).

(For that matter, Second Wind doesn't look to be that much of a boon to PCs either in a lot of cases - except for dwarves)

Elites and Solos are much more likely to find it useful, except that they're going to be facing the combined attacks of multiple PCs.

There are times when Second Wind matters. If simple NPCs and monsters don't get it, they'll be disadvantaged when there's a lull in the action or another character takes the heat off of them for a round, or they would otherwise be able to retreat for a round or two to lick their wounds. If NPC Dwarves don't get their racial ability, that'll be a big hit to their effectiveness.

 

[eleran]

Having Healing Surges doesn't automatically mean that NPCs have a Second Wind ability (=way to use them). Next time read the sentence before replying

Nor does it automatically imply that they don't have a way to use them, which is the conclusion you have put forth for no other reason than it is the most negative way to view things.

 

[Jack99]

And was it through Second Wind or a racial ability? We don't know.

From the DDM card, rpg side

Burrowed Refuge: Standard, only when bloodied (limited power, costs 1 action point): Brw 6, no opp atk, heal 47, no recharge.

Definitely a racial ability.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

(For that matter, Second Wind doesn't look to be that much of a boon to PCs either in a lot of cases - except for dwarves)

It depends on how many "immediate" attacks or opportunity attacks you can count to make each round. The playtest Fighter in our group was a Dwarf, so the results are a bit skewed, but I definitely remember hertaking down a few Kobold with his immediate attack when shifting. The defense bonuses from Second Wind do help make this option a little more benecial, too.

Still, it's not the best option.

 

[Khur]

I think he just doesn't want risk being fooled by Chris Simms into accidentally buying the 4E books and playing the game just because Chris claimed that there were Healing Surges for NPCs. Khur/Chris might be lying, after all. For all we know, the 4E rulebooks are just the OD&D rulebooks, minus every rule that at least barely seemed to make sense and with new art-work (predominantly dragonborn with boobs). The cool rules the designers constantly imply or have described on the DDXP are just made up on their spare time and will not actually be in the book. They don't want anyone else to have fun with them. Photocopying and printing rules is what photography is to humans - it steals your soul!

Or he just missed it.

Mwuhahahahahahahahaha!

Seriously. Just so the discussion can get on yet another track, not all NPCs/monsters have second wind or any way to use healing surges in combat.

The game itself has tools for customizing this to taste, of course. As designers, and I count every DM in that camp, we all want to be able to tinker.

I have to agree with the sentiment that, a lot of times, a monster is actually harming its survivability by using a standard action to just heal a little. Sometimes that's true for PCs too—but desperation can lead to bad choices. That's probably okay, since you take the good with the bad.

Oh, and yeah, that dwarf ability is uber. Second wind as a minor action. Wheeee! Love it.