Clerics can't heal (NPCs)?

[med stud]

The 5% or so of the populace that had PC classes in 3e is still there in 4e. The difference is that they are now modeled using monster statistics rather than PC classes. An NPC who is modeled as an Elf Archer, Elite skirmisher 10 can be just as important to the background as he could if he were listed as Elf Ranger 10. The difference is in the way the rules treat the character. I definitely prefer the former for most NPCs, but I can easily imagine dozens of NPCs that I will stat out as PCs if it's necessary for the story.

Not to mention that you don't have to pick spells or assign skill points for a character that you essentially wanted to add because you wanted an elf that was good with the bow. Well, not that you had to in 3e either, but still.

I have never felt the need to flesh out NPCs for myself. I don't care if the elf ranger has Profession (sailor) +6 because he was at sea in his youth. I just care for his part in the campaign.

 

[The Little Raven]

When PCs want to be heroes they should earn it.

By setting aside what limited time I have to play RPGs each week as well as devoting a portion of my limited expendable income, I have damned well earned the right to be a hero.

 

[Kordeth]

Even if NPCs lacked healing surges, and you want to use healing word, how hard is it to get the numbers of HP healed?? Take the NPC's or monster's HP, divide it by four and voila! you got a healing surge amount. It must be the easiest house rule in the world to make.

Just to nitpick, the issue wasn't "how much can an NPC heal with a healing surge," it was "how many healing surges can an NPC use per day?"

I mean, D&D is not a computer game. You can deviate from the RAW if you deem it necessary. In this case, it is a rule change that will have no spin-off effects on other areas of the game, either.

Except that it's not a rule change at all because as Chris said, NPCs have healing surges.

 

[The Little Raven]

Snowflakes FTL.

Frak that. I've already got a game where nobody is really unique, heroic, or special... it's called real life. I play games to be something special, not to transplant the day-to-day mundaneness into some fantasy world.

 

[happyelf]

The difference between PC classes and NPC classes, between 'standard' and 'elite' arrays, is one of power level, not innate being. That the rules enshrine such a difference is worrisome.

I disagree. The PCs are the player characters. They are the characters the players are playing.

The NPCs are nothing compared to that. They's tools. Devices. They should never, EVER come even close to being as important or as noteworthy as the PCs in the mind of the DM.
Ever.

Leading on from that, it only makes sense to use different mechanics for NPC as compared to PCs, since they are completly different after all and play a completly different role on the table.

 

[FadedC]

Audie Murphy performed acts of heroism which would get most people killed. Leonardo da Vinci was a success at almost anything he tried, and he tried a lot of things. But none of them were "touched by the gods" or "destined for greatness", and while what they did pushed the limits of what a human can do, they weren't *different* from other people, just *better* than most. It's a curve, not a line. DaVinci was one of many great artists/scientists -- perhaps the best, but not metaphysically different from the second-best. Audie Murphy wasn't the only hero of WW2. Etc.

.

How do you know that DaVinci and Audie Murphy weren't destined for greatness? Certainly in a world with gods and magics and destinies you might reasonably expect that they were.

 

[malraux]

By setting aside what limited time I have to play RPGs each week as well as devoting a portion of my limited expendable income, I have damned well earned the right to be a hero.

Durn straight. If I'm gonna sit around in a basement pretending to be an elf, its gonna be a heroic elf.

 

[happyelf]

Even if the PCs aren't heroes, they're still the Player-Characters and the DM should always keep that in mind. To use an extreme example, even if they are literally faceless drones in a crowd, these drones are the important ones because they are the ones the players are playing. The game should revolve around them, and the rules should reflect that.

 

[Khur]

Not really.

People with PC Classes were elite -- but that included almost every NPC of any significance. The were LOTS of clerics, fighters, wizard, etc, in the world -- the demographics in the DMG made it clear that about 1-5% of the populace was "PC Classed". Every village had a cleric, a sorceror, and a ranger or two.

The impression I get from 4e is that the "PC's Are Special Precious Snowflakes" meme gets kicked up to 11, with even high level NPC allies/enemies usually being things like 'Elf Elite Archer' or 'Human Knight-Commander' instead of leveled characters. See the example noted earlier -- the NPC traveling with the party isn't a classed character, he's an entry from the MM.

Snowflakes FTL.

PCs already have enough advantages, just being PCs. Hard-coding it into the game world that they're special in a *rules dependent* sense is really annoying, and it places a stamp on all world building that can be hard to wash off. Not every world has/needs/acknowledges "destined heroes". I prefer worlds with rich and storied histories, where Heroic Deeds are going on everywhere -- and the PCs are just the people we happen to paying attention to. They are better than *most* people in the sense they're skilled, lucky, trained, determined -- they're the high end of the bell curve. But that's the only advantage they have; they aren't *metaphysically* different.

Audie Murphy performed acts of heroism which would get most people killed. Leonardo da Vinci was a success at almost anything he tried, and he tried a lot of things. But none of them were "touched by the gods" or "destined for greatness", and while what they did pushed the limits of what a human can do, they weren't *different* from other people, just *better* than most. It's a curve, not a line. DaVinci was one of many great artists/scientists -- perhaps the best, but not metaphysically different from the second-best. Audie Murphy wasn't the only hero of WW2. Etc.

The difference between PC classes and NPC classes, between 'standard' and 'elite' arrays, is one of power level, not innate being. That the rules enshrine such a difference is worrisome.

You seem to think you need PC classes to make NPCs special, unique, or as powerful as PCs. That's an assumption you've made, and it's wrong. The only thing most NPCs and monsters aren't, compared to PCs, is as complex. If you think you need that largely mechanical complexity to tell your story, the PH is full of options for you.

Nobody said the PCs were the only heroes—but they should be the ones a specific D&D game focuses on. The only place where "snowlflake PCs" is truly "enshrined" is the rules for raising the dead. If that's really a problem, ignore it. Note that nobody said that PCs were superior in every way to certain NPCs and monsters. They are different, but once again, the differences are largely issues of mechanical complexity.

IMO, the fact that every town had a cleric was not only bogus, it was diminishing to any sense of specialness the PCs might have had. Why does every town need a miracle worker when a guy that knows a few helpful rituals or spells is fine? It was also a strain on the imagination when a base town is full of hero-like guys who just fail to do anything about trouble.

The rest of your post is impossible to discuss because you haven't defined your terms. I can say that plenty of people the world over believe that someone who becomes great is indeed destined for greatness or touched by God/the gods. Lots of people believe it is a metaphysical difference, such as karma or wyrd. A whole lot of people would agree with me when I say better is different, whether by practice, talent, or strange fate. And regardless of one's view of the real world, a fantasy game can and maybe even should include these.

 

[Wormwood]

The NPCs are nothing compared to that. They's tools. Devices. They should never, EVER come even close to being as important or as noteworthy as the PCs in the mind of the DM.
Ever.

Leading on from that, it only makes sense to use different mechanics for NPC as compared to PCs, since they are completly different after all and play a completly different role on the table.

Absolutely 100% agreement.

You are my new favorite poster.