Clerics' Channeling, not casting(long post, sorry)

[papastebu]

The stuff below is my attempt to define the fact that clerics are not spellcasters, so much as channelers of energy that is beyond them, from somewhere else, and at the whim or intent of greater beings. I am trying to do this sort of thing with all spellcasters in the D&D game, but in different ways that, while still in the d20 system, lend the particular flavor of "Where does it come from for you?" to each class. I hope you like it, but feel free to politely say it sucks, and definitely offer what kind criticisms you will.

05-02-07 EDIT: One thing. There are no spell levels in this particular system. The only level-based part of it is the class-level of the cleric doing the praying.
The numbers are like this: Check=1d20 + cleric levels + Charisma modifier. DC=the deity's brood rating +/-, respectively, request for intervention #/deity-ego-stroking prayer #, respectively, -1 per 5 cleric levels gained. Additional modifications to the DC occur when the cleric is in the presence of a (to his own deity)sacred or profane location or individual.
The check comes into play when the cleric has exhausted all "free" uses of her granted powers. Free-use allotments are equal per day to cleric's class level plus cha mod, or at least 1 use of any one of the cleric's powers: 1st level cleric with 14 Charisma can use her powers a total of 4 times before having to make a check versus her deity's brood level. All power durations are equal to cleric's level plus charisma modifier

05-02-07 EDIT2: All good clerics can heal a number of hit points per day equal to twice their class level, plus Charisma modifier. All evil clerics can conversely harm. These powers are free-use powers that do not count against the cleric's daily allotment, and all points for these powers need not be used at once. Healing or harming cures/causes wounds when the target's threshold is exceeded in either direction. Wounds apply a -1 penalty to all actions per. At 7th level this power is no longer a range of touch. At 15th level, the healing is an area effect. Bear in mind that healing does damage to undead.

05-02-07 EDIT3: There are certain "generic but specific" powers that any cleric may use, all of which count against their free-use allotment. Blessing; this is a benediction that is specific to the deity's alignment, domains, or areas of influence. A blessing from a god of healing might be healing or the restoration of a limb. Smite; the healing god might cause his cleric's foes to suffer wounds more easily. Protection; the healing god might make it so that his cleric or the recipient of this power takes no wounds at all. Empowerment; the cleric of the healing god might gain extra healing power. Guidance; the cleric of the healing god might "see" exactly who needs the most help on the battlefield. Curse; the healing god might prevent the cleric's foe from healing, short of miracles or magic, or even short of death.

05-02-07 EDIT4: Domain powers: Each domain has a set of powers that the cleric may gain one of each cleric level, provided it is part of one of the cleric's two domains. This is the only leveled-up part of the system, and each use counts against the cleric's free use allotment. Each power grows in efficacy as the cleric grows in service to his master. Descriptions of these powers may or may not follow at a later date.

05-02-07 EDIT5: Good clerics can attempt to turn a number of undead dice equal to their level plus their Charisma modifier, for a like number of rounds. The DC is 10 plus the highest HD individual in a group of undead. Free willed undead get a will save to resist, and may add turn resistance to that save. Evil clerics may conversely rebuke undead. If a cleric beats the turn/rebuke undead DC by 5 or more, all turned/rebuked undead take damage/are granted hit points equal to the cleric's level plus Charisma modifier. If the DC is exceeded by a given undead's hit dice, it is destroyed/enthralled.

05-02-07 EDIT6: Any cleric can request that his deity do anything in her power at time of need. There are no free uses of this ability. Each use adds 5 to the deity's brood rating, starting with the first. The results of this attempt are arbitrated by the DM, as it is the deity's choice how she helps her servants, or even if she helps them at all. Which is to say, the DM can veto this request even if successful, if game balance is threatened.

Clerics use charisma, rather than wisdom, for all of their powers and granted abilities.

05-06-07 EDIT: The reason I chose charisma over wisdom, is that charisma is the influence stat. The cleric is the representative of the deity in the mortal world. She would also use charisma to show the deity how fervent she was, to draw new converts, and to scare the poop---if they still pooped, that is---out of undead who threaten. Also, I had a vague idea about having the people around her "believe" with her, so that the likelihood of acheiving what she intended would be greater.

Basically, the cleric uses her force of personality to draw the attention of her patron, the attention of anyone nearby, and even her own attention, to the act of faith she is committing right then. Her faith is then rewarded if it is strong enough—1d20 + cleric level + charisma modifier, versus the DC—and the requested effect occurs. These abilities generally do not change unless the deity wants them to, or the cleric prays for something that will assist in a very particular way. Clerics do not cast spells, they channel the might of one greater than themselves, whom they serve. Clerics have granted powers—chosen by the player—based on their domains—also chosen by the player. Once a power is chosen, it grows in power as the cleric’s level increases.

Each time the cleric uses any of her powers, the DCs of all attempts to use any power go up by one. This includes the abilities of turn/rebuke undead, and those of heal/harm. The cleric can use her abilities once per day per level, plus her charisma modifier, without this happening. Every seven cleric levels gained, all power-use DCs drop by one.

A good cleric can attempt to turn, damage, or destroy undead.
If 1d20 + cleric levels + charisma modifier is higher than a given undead’s ECL plus 10, then that undead is turned.
A cleric can turn a number of undead dice equal to her level plus her charisma modifier, for a number of rounds equal to her levels plus charisma modifier, plus one.
A cleric may attempt to damage an undead of any ECL, 1d20 + cleric levels + charisma modifier, and an additional undead for every five points the check exceeds the initial target’s DC, provided the additional target’s ECL is the same or lower than the first’s.
The damage equals one point for each cleric level, plus one point for each point of charisma modifier, plus the number of points the successful check exceeds the damage DC. The DC is 10 plus the ECL of the undead to be affected.
A cleric can attempt to destroy undead. The DC is 15 + ECL of a given undead creature. For every class level the cleric has more than the ECL of the undead to be destroyed, the base DC of 15 drops by 1. For every five points the check to destroy exceeds the total DC, the cleric may use this destruction check to destroy another undead within ten feet of the first, provided the additional target’s ECL is the same or lower than the initial undead destroyed.
A cleric may attempt to heal wounds, or heal hit points, again using 1d20 + cleric levels + charisma modifier versus 10 + 1 for each wound/hit point healed. A success means all attempted hit points or wounds are healed, a failure means none of them are. A success against a wound does not heal hit points, but success against enough hit points heals wounds.

Evil clerics may attempt to rebuke, bolster, or command undead. The mechanic is the same for this as for the turning, etc, that good clerics can do.
Rebuking undead causes a number of dice of undead equal to the cleric’s levels plus his charisma modifier to simply stand there, doing nothing, for a number of rounds equal to cleric’s levels plus charisma modifier, plus one. If a given undead creature has been rebuked successfully, then the number of rounds—equal to cleric levels plus charisma modifier—left in the rebuke’s duration is subtracted from any command attempt’s base DC of 15. 1 is also subtracted from command attempts’ DCs for each class level the evil cleric has above the ECL of the undead to be commanded.
An evil cleric can attempt to bolster a given undead by a number of hit points/strength points equal to his level plus his charisma modifier, plus the number of points that the successful check exceeds the bolster DC. An additional undead can be bolstered for every five points that the successful check exceeds the DC, provided that the additional target is the same or lower DC as the initial. The DC is 10 plus the ECL of the affected undead creature.
An evil cleric can attempt to command an undead. The DC for this is 15 plus the ECL of the target, plus one for every effective level by which the undead exceeds the cleric’s class levels, and minus one, conversely. For each five points the successful check exceeds the DC, the cleric commands another nearby undead, provided the new target is of the same ECL or lower than the initial.

Clerics have other powers, as bestowed by their deities.
Bane: A curse, based on the deity’s area of influence.
Blessing: A benediction, some assistance related to the deity’s powers.
Empowerment: A temporary ability, often a lesser form of the deity’s primary ability.
Protection: some increase—usually temporary—in the cleric’s or the recipient’s defensive capability.
Vision: some sort of insight into what the deity wants, usually bestowed in a way closely related to the deity’s main area of influence.
In addition to these powers, the cleric may pray for anything he thinks his deity can or will grant, at any time. The deities are fickle, though, and this makes them less likely to grant the requests of servants if the servants ask too often.

Each deity has a brood rating. This is the cleric’s initial DC to convince the deity to grant a prayer/request, 1d20 + charisma modifier + cleric’s class levels. This DC climbs by one for every time the cleric makes a request within a given day. If this number reaches too high, then the prayer checks can’t succeed, and the deity has stopped listening, because of sullenness, anger, annoyance, or some other emotion that might cause them to brood. For each successful non-request prayer—same roll versus the current brood rating, with no result but stroking the deity's ego—the number of the brood rating drops by one. In this way, the deity’s initial brood rating can be lowered down to even negative numbers, meaning that the deity is so well-disposed to his or her servant that he practically grants his every wish.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Initial thoughts:

#1: I don't like the Cha-casting. Wis-casting is a sacred cow I'd like to keep.

#2: They need a way to still fill the "healer" niche, preferably a way that is reliable and doesn't involve the potential failure of a check.

#3: Hit points should be easier to damage/heal than Strength points. ECL is an awkward mechanic to use for this, since it's more meant to measure a character's presence in a party. CR would be better, HD would give some more verisimilitude.

#4: I'd like to see a few different domain powers.

I could see this working, definitely. Needs a good spitshine, but I like the idea of giving clerics something other than spellslots to cast with.

 

[papastebu]

#1: I don't like the Cha-casting. Wis-casting is a sacred cow I'd like to keep.

Any particular reason? Just personal preference?

#2: They need a way to still fill the "healer" niche, preferably a way that is reliable and doesn't involve the potential failure of a check.

I thought about this, too, but I want to keep it in the d20 mechanic. Lower the base DC for this ability, then have it get lower as they class-level up? Maybe leave the amount they heal as-posted, but allow a times-per-day paradigm. That sounds pretty "granted" to me.

#3: Hit points should be easier to damage/heal than Strength points.

I could separate the two possibilities, at least as far as the DCs are concerned.

ECL is an awkward mechanic to use for this, since it's more meant to measure a character's presence in a party.

I always saw ECL as simply whatever monster HD the creature had, plus any class levels it had.

CR would be better,

Why would it be better?

HD would give some more verisimilitude.

I just got it about the believability thing for this one: The fact that they HAVE undead HD is what makes them turnable, etc, in the first place. I may just change that, completely.

#4: I'd like to see a few different domain powers.

The funny answer to this is, "So would I," but the truth is, I just got to this point, and haven't gotten that far with actually creating powers. The basic idea is that there are a few powers that the cleric can use for the chosen domain(s), using the rules I've stated in the OP. The abilities I actually have listed are intended to be things that any cleric can do/have happen, regardless of domain, deity, or alignment, but related--and definitely either condoned or forbidden, respectively--to all of these things.

I could see this working, definitely. Needs a good spitshine, but I like the idea of giving clerics something other than spellslots to cast with.[/QUOTE]

 

[javcs]

Gah, checks to use the primary function of a class, spells ... that'll seriously impact player fun.
Heck, even the stuff from Tome of Magic that required checks had a skill for it.

I personally wouldn't use this system, but your game, your house rules.

Make sure your player's are okay with this kind of variant casting.

The initial brood rating DCs can't be that high, highest mod at level one is going to be a +5 (+4 stat, +1 class), so average'll be a 15, ranging up to a little over 20, maybe 22-23, to give a chance to succeed greater than 5%.

 

[GreatLemur]

I really dig this idea, and I've done a little bit of thinking in the same direction, myself. It's pretty much always felt wrong to me that Clerics (and other divine types) cast spells at all, and I also don't like how arcane and divine spellcasting work in basically the same way (especially now that there are other systems, such as psionics, invocations, maneuvers, etc.) which use new subsystems with totally different feels.

Lately, I've even been thinking about a check-based casting system for Clerics with a cumulative difficulty, only the effects would still be based on spells (although much more domain-focused), and the check might actually be a Fortitude save. Failure would indicate not a refusal by the deity to grant the requested miracle, but the caster's inability to withstand the divine power he or she attempted to channel. (And now I'm thinking that a failed check would offer the character a choice: accept that the spell doesn't go off, or make it work, and accept some kind of penalty, like a level of fatigue, or a cumulative -1 or -2 to all checks, HP or ability score damage, something like that.)

But that's a tangent. I dig what you're trying to do, here, and the fact that you're considering moving outside of the spell system all together is really cool. I do share javcs' concerns regarding the fun-killer effect of completely fizzled powers, though. Maybe you could take a page from the Thieves' World magic system and let a failed channeling attempt provide a bonus on the next check if the Cleric attempts the same miracle the following round? That way, the effort isn't completely wasted; they just need to work a little longer to get their deity's attention.

 

[papastebu]

Gah, checks to use the primary function of a class, spells ... that'll seriously impact player fun.
Heck, even the stuff from Tome of Magic that required checks had a skill for it.

I personally wouldn't use this system, but your game, your house rules.

Make sure your player's are okay with this kind of variant casting.

The initial brood rating DCs can't be that high, highest mod at level one is going to be a +5 (+4 stat, +1 class), so average'll be a 15, ranging up to a little over 20, maybe 22-23, to give a chance to succeed greater than 5%.

The trade-off for the checks is that you don't run out of ammo. Fighters do it every time, and the pattern is the same.
I can see where people might not like changing from "I cast {such and such}" to "I attempt to convince my divine benefactor to do {this}," but to be totally honest, I'm doing this because I like rules tinkering, not for any specific group. There are no gamers out here in the woods of Alabama, so far as I know. Now, if I can make it work as far as balance and flavor are concerned, THEN I might take it to the table. If not, it'll just be for me.
Also, I tried using skills as a basis for actual spells in the checks I'm using for wizard casting, but it lowered the first-shot casting DCs of powerful spells to super-easy inside of a few levels. I don't want to give away too much, such as a Bless every round AND ease of casting.
Since you specifically commented on the brood-ratings, do you think that they should lower towards given clerics more often than once every seventh level, i.e.g., "You have served me well, mortal, so I will grant you a boon."? Or is that a decent amount? In 20 levels they would get to lower the base DCs twice.

 

[papastebu]

I really dig this idea, and I've done a little bit of thinking in the same direction, myself. It's pretty much always felt wrong to me that Clerics (and other divine types) cast spells at all, and I also don't like how arcane and divine spellcasting work in basically the same way (especially now that there are other systems, such as psionics, invocations, maneuvers, etc.) which use new subsystems with totally different feels.

Lately, I've even been thinking about a check-based casting system for Clerics with a cumulative difficulty, only the effects would still be based on spells (although much more domain-focused), and the check might actually be a Fortitude save. Failure would indicate not a refusal by the deity to grant the requested miracle, but the caster's inability to withstand the divine power he or she attempted to channel. (And now I'm thinking that a failed check would offer the character a choice: accept that the spell doesn't go off, or make it work, and accept some kind of penalty, like a level of fatigue, or a cumulative -1 or -2 to all checks, HP or ability score damage, something like that.)

EDIT: Are you talking about the barbarian fatigue? Might work, but if it ended up being cumulative, you've got somebody that dies of channeling in just a few rounds. I am probably misunderstanding you. I like the cumulative penalty to all checks better, if I'm not. Maybe apply it to channeling attempts only, and never more than -2 for any given use of this ability.

But that's a tangent. I dig what you're trying to do, here, and the fact that you're considering moving outside of the spell system all together is really cool. I do share javcs' concerns regarding the fun-killer effect of completely fizzled powers, though. Maybe you could take a page from the Thieves' World magic system and let a failed channeling attempt provide a bonus on the next check if the Cleric attempts the same miracle the following round? That way, the effort isn't completely wasted; they just need to work a little longer to get their deity's attention.

I'm not familiar with the Thieves World system--do they have that cool order of mages who have a big star tattooed on their foreheads?--but I like that idea, kind of like the deities are kind of holding back, not as impressed as they could be, but willing to give the clerics the benefit of the doubt if they'll just try a little harder. It would make a bit of a sop for frustrated attempts. I was thinking that some locations or even special people would give a bonus of some sort.

 

[GreatLemur]

The Thieves' World magic system (I'm talking about Green Ronin's d20 version, not the old Chaosium one) is pretty rockin. In order to cast a spell, you need to gather a certain amount of mana (equal to (spell level + 1) x 10, so cantrips require 10 points, 1st level spells require 20, and so on). Each spell-casting class has a BAB-like spellcasting bonus progression, and in order to gather mana, they roll 1d20 + spellcasting bonus + ability score modifier. If the result equals or exceeds the spell's Mana Threshold, the spell goes off as normal. If it doesn't, then you can save that result and roll again next round, and add your new result to your pool of saved mana, and keep going until you've got enough for the spell.

There's some other business in there about casting times, and rituals (as opposed to spells), and critical succeses/failures, and foci, but that's pretty much the meat of it. I haven't actually gotten to use it, but I really like how it sounds. It fits pretty well with how I think magic ought to work, and allows casters to do their thing all day, without letting them toss fireballs around constantly.

 

[papastebu]

So my mechanic is not that different, huh? I guess that's O.K. Precious little I can do about it, anyway. I should have known that someone else would have seen the possibilities in the fighter's ways and means, ala d20.
One of the things that I like about this is that given a cleric's choice of domain, certain benefits would be available for short periods, and certain benefits would be constant. If she took the Strength domain, she has a permanent +2 to strength--unless she actually ticks her deity off--and one of the powers is a kind of super-strength for some amount of level-based time. This might be something that a cleric with the Earth domain might have access to, as well, or maybe a few seconds(one round/level, maybe) of earth-elemental form, granting strength, durability, and an unexpected means of travel. The ideas for the powres are nebulous, at best right now. But the name for the clerics IMW might be The Face of {deity}, or The Hand of {domain}.
Aside from the Healing/Harming DC, would anybody flat-out change anything? I think I've already decided that the turning/rebuking thing(s) are going to be on the HD of the undead +10, rather than the ECL, but I kind of like the rest of it. If anyone can think of anything to help with workability and flavor, then I'm listening.

P.S.: This is totally irrelevent, but I just heard my eight-year-old son SNORING! He sounds like a grown man!

 

[javcs]

The trade-off for the checks is that you don't run out of ammo. Fighters do it every time, and the pattern is the same.
I can see where people might not like changing from "I cast {such and such}" to "I attempt to convince my divine benefactor to do {this}," but to be totally honest, I'm doing this because I like rules tinkering, not for any specific group. There are no gamers out here in the woods of Alabama, so far as I know. Now, if I can make it work as far as balance and flavor are concerned, THEN I might take it to the table. If not, it'll just be for me.
Also, I tried using skills as a basis for actual spells in the checks I'm using for wizard casting, but it lowered the first-shot casting DCs of powerful spells to super-easy inside of a few levels. I don't want to give away too much, such as a Bless every round AND ease of casting.
Since you specifically commented on the brood-ratings, do you think that they should lower towards given clerics more often than once every seventh level, i.e.g., "You have served me well, mortal, so I will grant you a boon."? Or is that a decent amount? In 20 levels they would get to lower the base DCs twice.

With fighters, missing once in a while is expected, however, with the magic users, it's generally felt that they'll get the spell off almost all the time (except when they get hit or countered).

I think that for the brood ratings automatically lowering them more often would be a good idea (maybe every 4 levels?).
However, if you start at higher than level 1, determining your initial brood rating is going to be difficult.


You might want to check out the Truenamer from Tome of Magic, they use a very similar mechanic, but the DCs for a given power are constant and the DCs scale better (you wind up needing to max out the Truespeak skill in order to be able to reliably use your higher level powers, but the lower level ones get vastly easier to accomplish).