Clerics & Druids: musings

[Aus_Snow]

ignore, double post

well, reply instead of edit actually. oops.

 

[Veril]

Taking heavy armour prof and reducing HD to D6, what a way to cripple clerics IMO. Should have some seriously powered things added to them to make up for this. I wouldn't touch a cleric with no heavy armour and 1D6 hp.

Clerics are intended to be in combat (only fighters/paladins/rangers/barbarians have better BAB than clerics). Simplet weapons are fine - plenty of 1D8 damage weapons out there - simple weapons give clerics access to more weapon choices than all except the 4 primary melee classes.

Take a look at the clerical spells, there's a whole bunch of spells that are combat self-buffs - Rightous Might, Divine Favour, Divine Power etc. Without the base AC and HP you cannot afford to be in comba, and so you are therefore taking away these spells as well as valid and useful choices for the Cleric.

In return for gutting the combat capabilities I'd expect something like an oratory or preaching power - something like bardic music, (and a bump up of skill points). As a representive of my god I speak with his voice, that's seems to allow for a whole bunch of the bardic abilities to be justiffied.

Playing a cleric is pretty tedious compared to playing most other classes, you are a lot more reactive. Casting cures - which are far less effective in terms of HP/Spell Level compared to damaging spells simply isn't that fun. Big heroic fighter at the front hands out loads of damage to the monsters, cleaving, power attacking etc, making choices in return he takes loads of damage back, enough that next round he will die. Cleric Choices are as follows, let the fighter die and then you all die in the next few rounds because of the lack of combat capabilies, or move up and casts their 1 cure spell on the fighter. That's not a choice at all.

The choices and decisions of the other players determine what the cleric can do. By the book a cleric seems to be overpowered, but that's a payoff for what a cleric has to do. A lot of time the cleric is having to respond to the situation passivly rather than being active.

The vast majority of cleric spells are used as cures - it doesn't matter that they chose a lot of different spells, the whole game is ruled by HP's. If you run out of HP's it's all over. So the cleric simply has to convert their spells into HP for the rest of the party, or you simply stop adventuring until you have more HP.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I wouldn't touch a cleric with no heavy armour and 1D6 hp.

You will probably never suffer that horrible fate, which is a good thing isn't it? I might be dropping medium armour as well, so please don't read this if it'll only cause you pain. Oh, and what's worse, they will probably have a medium Fort Save progression too.

Clerics are intended to be in combat

That depends on a lot of things. Regardless, they will be less templar-like and more travelling priest/ess-like by the time I'm through with them.

Take a look at the clerical spells, there's a whole bunch of spells that are combat self-buffs - Rightous Might, Divine Favour, Divine Power etc. Without the base AC and HP you cannot afford to be in comba, and so you are therefore taking away these spells as well as valid and useful choices for the Cleric.

With some added class abilities, I don't see these spells as useless for my altered clerics.

In return for gutting the combat capabilities I'd expect something like an oratory or preaching power - something like bardic music, (and a bump up of skill points). As a representive of my god I speak with his voice, that's seems to allow for a whole bunch of the bardic abilities to be justiffied.

Funny you should say that. I've been working on the class just now, and some of the abilities that might end up in the mix are similar to the abovementioned. Others include spiritual resilience to various things (a god's or goddess's protection could be a powerful thing, methinks) - in this area for one example: fear and mind-affecting spells and effects.

Playing a cleric is pretty tedious compared to playing most other classes, you are a lot more reactive. Casting cures - which are far less effective in terms of HP/Spell Level compared to damaging spells simply isn't that fun. Big heroic fighter at the front hands out loads of damage to the monsters, cleaving, power attacking etc, making choices in return he takes loads of damage back, enough that next round he will die. Cleric Choices are as follows, let the fighter die and then you all die in the next few rounds because of the lack of combat capabilies, or move up and casts their 1 cure spell on the fighter. That's not a choice at all.

Any player in one of my campaigns who feels this way will be glad to know that the Templar will be there for them to take, as a temple-trained buttkickin' alternative to the boring old (well, new) Cleric.

No seriously, the Templar is being made to fill the very hole that the standard Cleric might or might not leave. Something a bit Sohei-ish and borrowing from elsewhere a bit, but a lot homemade.

The choices and decisions of the other players determine what the cleric can do. By the book a cleric seems to be overpowered, but that's a payoff for what a cleric has to do. A lot of time the cleric is having to respond to the situation passivly rather than being active.

Having more powers and whatsit should let them take more of a frontseat in battle, at those times they deem it right to do so (or when their deity is encouraging them).

The vast majority of cleric spells are used as cures - it doesn't matter that they chose a lot of different spells, the whole game is ruled by HP's. If you run out of HP's it's all over. So the cleric simply has to convert their spells into HP for the rest of the party, or you simply stop adventuring until you have more HP.

In my campaigns, each deity's chosen (and *every* Cleric is now going to have a patron deity) will help themselves and others cope with such dreary facts of life - admirably, I hope.


...and if the whole thing fails spectacularly, I'll go with the saner option of the Cloistered Cleric (usually known as some variety of Sage here) being the default cleric, and the Cleric doing the templar thing.

 

[Nifft]

Oh, and what's worse, they will probably have a medium Fort Save progression too.

This I strongly disagree with. Why? One word: UNDEAD. They force a lot of Fort saves. Clerics should be strong against them.

-- N

 

[Jraynack]

Just out of curiosity, have you seen the cloistered cleric in the Unearthed Arcana? Off the top of my head it seems to fit your description well as to the adjustments you wish to make to the cleric core class.

I can understand the compliant that PHB cleric does not fit to the true medieval archetype and it is more akin to a medieval crusader (but the paladin fills that role well - save for the fact - it is a role filled for only lawful good churches).

this is just the wrong area to preach about hows WOTC is so great, etc.

Oh - just for the record, I never stated that WOTC was so great or I would not have felt the need to start up my own d20 publishing company. We make it a habit of making new rules to fill the many gaps that WOTC have yet to fill, especially to those who have a homebrewed world who wishes to have a smattering of a real world feel.

 

[Nyaricus]

Yeah, I'm using prestige Paladins. I have a strong tendency to wanting mechanical things to be symmetrical, so either Blackguard (or some other evil Paladin) needed to be base or Paladin needed to be Prestige. I chose the latter.

ah. what i am doing is simply making a base class that is a holy-warrior (note, that this is only a rough draft of ideas). i am calling him a Crusader, and he gets a smite infidel ability, of which he may use against any foe he deams to be a baddy (no stigma about this, except in a specific situation, where maybe a memeber of his chosen church sees him smiting a truely good guy [or useful guy, in the case of evil guys], then atonement might be a good idea). alignments go along the Lawful spectrum, adn he has good BAB, good Fort and Will, gets turn undead like my Priest base class (and may also turn demons/devils like my Priest), and i am toying with spells and a few other abilities. i have never like the special mount junk so that is getting axed definitly.

One of these days, I'm going to sit down and figure out what game I'm playing, because I'm not sure it's D&D anymore.

man, tell me about it, i am 17, only been playing 6 years, and 3.5 is (relatively) new, and yet i already have a mini-library full of my personal notes, including many, many house rules. its so funny, i forgot to cry

 

[Aus_Snow]

Just out of curiosity, have you seen the cloistered cleric in the Unearthed Arcana? Off the top of my head it seems to fit your description well as to the adjustments you wish to make to the cleric core class.

There are quite a few posts, so it would've been easy to miss the couple of times I mentioned them earlier on. I intend to further weaken that variant physically, too (while strengthening them spiritually). They'll have d4's for HD and lose all armour, but will gain certain advantages, which are being worked out currently.

I can understand the compliant that PHB cleric does not fit to the true medieval archetype and it is more akin to a medieval crusader (but the paladin fills that role well - save for the fact - it is a role filled for only lawful good churches).

Not in my campaigns; I offer 9 varieties of Paladin (one of each alignment). The Templar will be something else again though, because I tend to consider the Paladin and the variants thereof to be examples of 'lone crusaders', typically (i.e., not tied to a religious order). It's the flavour I've decided on for them - not something I would necessarily suggest to all and sundry. The Templar will be an archetypal.. well.. templar (I'm hoping).

One word: UNDEAD. They force a lot of Fort saves. Clerics should be strong against them.

Excellent point. I was actually trying to think of a reason to keep the good Fort save progression. You've swung the argument quite neatly there.

 

[Selvarin]

I'd just as soon get rid of d4's altogether and give most spellcasters d6 bu that's another thread altogether.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I'd just as soon get rid of d4's altogether and give most spellcasters d6 bu that's another thread altogether.

Fair enough, though it seems I'm not the only who likes their Priests to have d4's. I checked out The Waking Lands for the first time recently, and was pleasantly surprised / horrified to discover that amazingly (or not) some of the very same changes I've made, in both the distant and the recent past, are mirrored there!

Hmmm.....

Though I can at least claim I've gone even further with the class renaming! It's all part of my genericising the classes so that they can all be used in a variety of settings as is, or at the least more easily and quickly tweaked (in only minor ways) to suit.

My (other) changes to class names:

Old Name    New Name     Problem with the Original Name
Barbarian   Berserker    not always applicable
Cleric      Templar      inaccurate
CloiCleric  Priest       just a horrible name
Druid       Shaman       specific cultural term
Fighter     Warrior      poxy term; I've always loathed it
Ninja       Assassin     specific cultural term
Shugenja    Elementalist specific cultural term
Wizard      Mage         just don't like the term 'wizard' much; it's poxy too

The whole boatload of class changes would be more than a poor old post could take, so I'll leave that for another day.


edit --- er, and I just realised I've gone (nearly) completely off topic there. Oh well, I suppose the poster to whom I was responding had too. . . kind of. :\