Clerics: Essential Class or Sacred Cow?

[GreatLemur]

Are you looking for different game mechanics, or an in-game explanation?

If it's in-game that you want, surely that's just a contrivance of flavor.

If it's game mechanics then there are multiple options for you. An easy one is the prepared/spontaneous divide. Another is striking Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards from the game, and replacing them with psions. The game mechanics are there to disassociate arcanists from divines.

So why have them function so similarly in the core rules? Simplicity, perhaps? It means only having to learn one set of game mechanics.

Is it possible to work the mechanics that there is no arcane/divine divide? Sure. Mongoose's Conan RPG does this, and the way they do it fits very well in the flavor of the Hyborian setting. Would it not feel alien in Greyhawk?

The mechanics exist to both make the classes distinct or make them identical. But simplicity suggests that while they may be different, arcane and divine magic should use the same system. And making them identical leaves out in the cold folks who have enjoyed Fighter/Thief/Cleric/Magic-User D&D for 30 years.

I'm a fairly long-time D&D player, and priests that cast spells have always, always seemed like a weird idea, to me. The mechanics of it just don't feel anything like externally-powered miracles, to me.

I realize that simplicity is vital--at least in the core--but I don't see why arcane magic and divine magic need to be any more like each other than either one is like combat or skills. Certainly, prepared vs. spontaneous casting is something of a worthwhile distinction--prepared casting is even weirder and more counterintuitive for divine types than arcanes--but I can't really see it as going quite far enough. Beyond the core books (and beyond D&D!), though, we've got a wide variety of alternate magic systems, so there are definitely much more mechanically-distinct options available.

 

[hong]

The arcane/divine split? It's a holdover from 30 years of D&D. Must mean that it's a sacred cow and valueless, axe it.

Yes, yes. I am glad you have seen the light.

Your opinion, as pithily expressed as it always is, isn't the only one;

Did I claim that it was?

that there is a difference between the power of faith to make things happen and enforcing one's own will upon the world through magic is very attractive to me.

How strange. I had thought you said, not a million years ago:

It's troublesome to maintain a seperation between metagame terminology and in-game terms?​

And clearly, if it's possible to maintain a separation [sic] between metagame terminology and in-game terms when there is an arcane/divine split, it is equally possible to do so in the context of a single magic system.

Enforcing one's will upon the world should sound attractive to you as well.

Indeed it does. As I have done, by impressing upon you the pointlessness of the arcane/divine split.

You? Never.

Of course.

 

[Felix]

As I have done, by impressing upon you the pointlessness of the arcane/divine split.

It's as pointless as giving flowers to your girlfriend. You can't eat them, they die quickly, you only give them because men have given women flowers for years.

Non-essential, sacred cow: give them the axe.

Good luck with that.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

He wasn't clever enough to pick up a Wand of Cure? Hmm.

Thank heavens for that d8+1 HP restored after a 70 damage power attack crit. Wands dont cut it for in battle healing. After a certain point, you need cleric level healing, unless you throw only low damage monsters/npc's at the party.

 

[hong]

It's as pointless as giving flowers to your girlfriend. You can't eat them, they die quickly, you only give them because men have given women flowers for years.

No, you can't have a pony. Or flowers for that matter.

Non-essential, sacred cow: give them the axe.

Good, good. We're making progress.

Good luck with that.

Are you coming along for the ride?

 

[Felix]

No, you can't have a pony.

Odd choice of stock phrase, considering you're telling me I can't have something I've had in D&D for 30 years.

Bad hong; reach back into that bag of pre-fab humor.

Are you coming along for the ride?

Don't come-on to me if you're not going to give me any flowers.

 

[hong]

Odd choice of stock phrase, considering you're telling me I can't have something I've had in D&D for 30 years.

You can have something you've had in D&D for 30 years, because I'm all for wanting to let people keep their security blankets.

But you still can't have a flower. Or a pony.

Bad hong; reach back into that bag of pre-fab humor.

I have a huge bag. Among other things.

Don't come-on to me if you're not going to give me any flowers.

Think of it as character building.

 

[Warren Okuma]

Thank heavens for that d8+1 HP restored after a 70 damage power attack crit. Wands dont cut it for in battle healing. After a certain point, you need cleric level healing, unless you throw only low damage monsters/npc's at the party.

And if the DM is using tactics, the majority of damage will happen to one character. Heal that character or die. The BBEG doing that is very nasty.

CLW wands are nice, but it's not an insurance policy.

 

[Doug McCrae]

And if the DM is using tactics, the majority of damage will happen to one character. Heal that character or die. The BBEG doing that is very nasty.

Prior to Heal, the cleric's a lot more effective dealing damage than healing.

 

[Warren Okuma]

Prior to Heal, the cleric's a lot more effective dealing damage than healing.

Absolutely. It depends on the situation.

But in earlier levels when that critter seriously crits your ally and continues to attack your ally, you need to heal that person or they may be killed. If your ally falls, you lose one attacker and this may result in a death spiral (the others PC's now cannot do enough damage to win the fight).

Learn from TPK's, they teach hard lessons.