Clerics - What do you LIKE and DISLIKE?

[drothgery]

Adept is clearly meant more as a tribal shaman, village witch/wise man, or local alchemist (under the 3.5 Alchemy rules) than it is the rank-and-file of the clergy.
....
By the DMG demographics rules, most villages and hamlets are going to have several low-level clerics in them: the local priests.

Because of the class name and D&D traditions, local priests are assumed to be clerics (and also because there's not a better core class for them, though you could make a case for Bard). But mechanically, clerics are holy warriors, not church administrators.

The Cloistered Cleric is an okay choice for this, the name is a little cumbersome for something in the core rules though. The more mystically and less martially oriented priest, preferably spontaneously casting, is something that belongs alongside cleric IMO.

I think I like having a set of classes available for divine types, from the most martial (paladin), to the least (cloistered cleric), with cleric, favored soul or mystic, and archivist in between.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Dislike the name.. also heavy armour proficiency and Turn Undead being standard across the board.

Dislike their spells being just like Wizard/Sorcerer spells in most ways, with a lot of direct crossover in fact. Dislike that they're even called spells in the first place.

Dislike that they're too pigeon-holed (even with domains etc.).


Like the idea and execution of Cleric domains, with some notable exceptions. Like divine feats as a neat patch for a cruddy feature (Turn Undead, as above), again with some exceptions.

 

[Nyaricus]

I went through the whole SRD Cleric entry and broke it down. Follow me here

Dislike:

• The name; they should be called 'Priests'
• divine magic allowing the casting of spells in armour. Magic is magic.
• if we have to stick with the magic schism, then the Heavy Armour prof.
• non-proficiency in dieties favoured weapon, if it isn't a simple weapon (fixed that with my own Weapon Group Proficiency rules; see my Tasty Bits thread)
• the lack of skill points; should be 4 or 6/level with more skills. Priests were incrediably knowledgable - heck, in the Dark Ages, Christian priests were said to have kept the light of civilization burning, due to their continued literacy and fluency in latin and the ability to read an write.
• the medium BAB prog. They should be 1/2 BAB, since Priests are not combatants - although there were orders which were (and would be PrC's requiring a warrior class/priest multiclass to meet the prereqs)
• the good fort save. A middle prog would put there where I think they should be (since they were healers they would meet up with diseases and in D&D they DO have to deal with undead, many of which require a fort save)
• the fact that 'divine magic' is an oxymorom - that really needs a new name; maybe "prayers", or the like.
• the fact that the spells saving throws are based off of Wisdom, when Charisma would be a more appropriate stat
• the fact that clerics can have access to the whole spell list; this really needs to be limited - clerics are just too powerful, what with that and the ability to wear heavy armour and cast spells.
• the clunky Turn Undead mechanics. I furthermore agree that there needs to be a new Channeling Energy mechanic which can, diety depending, allow you to turn undead, or do what a lot of those divine feats allow you to do with your Turn Undead uses/day.

Like:

• The good will save
• Full Spellcasting (clunky name, and all)
• the idea and implications of domains, even if they are only paper-thin applications to give clerics a shred of flavour.
• the concept of channeling energy ala Turn Undead, even if the mechanic itself needs to get off the core clerics ability list and the mechanics changed
• the spontaneous casting of cure and inflict spells - nifty stuff.
• Bonus Languages, a nice touch
• the skill list (althoguh it needs to be expanded).

thats about what I havethus far; thanks TheLe for these excellent threads BTW

 

[Harmon]

At first I hated to have to play one, now I wanted to play them all the time- esp any with the War Domain, and if Healing, or Protection can be worked in there- I love it.

Playing a Cleric of Barronor Truesilver (Family and Healing Domains) and I can't get enough.

 

[Hussar]

the lack of skill points; should be 4 or 6/level with more skills. Priests were incrediably knowledgable - heck, in the Dark Ages, Christian priests were said to have kept the light of civilization burning, due to their continued literacy and fluency in latin and the ability to read an write.

This isn't entirely true. Many of those monks copying scrolls were illiterate. The vast majority of the clergy was barely literate and Latin fluency was limited to Biblical verse. Literacy rates among the clergy were not all that high. Higher than the masses, probably, but, that's not all that hard.

I would also point out that just because Christian priests were somewhat like this, doesn't mean that the fantasy cleric has to follow. Giving Clerics more skills is gilding the lily IMO.

 

[Uder]

Dislike: Utterly banal class progression.

Level 1: Turn or rebuke undead.
Levels 2-20: Oh goodie. More spells.

That's my main gripe with clerics/sorcerers/wizards. Unless you really need the turning ability (or more powerful familiar, in the case of the arcanes), there is no hard choice involved in taking a prestige class. Well, unless "does this one have full casting ability?" counts as a hard choice.

 

[Li Shenron]

The only thing I dislike is the number of spells known. They should be limited like the arcane casters (tho it would be fine if it was still much larger).
I don't like how that means for many gaming groups that every spell from accessory books is automatically known, unless a HR is used.

Domains mechanic could be better with regard to spells, and concentrate more on what a cleric of a specific faiths gains that others don't. As it is designed, the diffierence is minimal.

 

[Numion]

As a player I like the cleric for it's robustness. All the buffs and good saves make for a durable character. Also a wide range of spells for negating hindering effects. It's hard to ever catch a cleric pants down, unless he literally is pants down (like sleeping, etc..)

As a DM that all can be a nuisance, when combined together. A cleric is too independent of the other PCs. It discourages teamwork, at least a little.

In short a very nice class to play, but maybe a tad unbalanced from a DMs POV.

 

[drothgery]

I went through the whole SRD Cleric entry and broke it down. Follow me here

Dislike:

• The name; they should be called 'Priests'
  ...
• the medium BAB prog. They should be 1/2 BAB, since Priests are not combatants - although there were orders which were (and would be PrC's requiring a warrior class/priest multiclass to meet the prereqs)
• the good fort save. A middle prog would put there where I think they should be (since they were healers they would meet up with diseases and in D&D they DO have to deal with undead, many of which require a fort save)

thats about what I havethus far; thanks TheLe for these excellent threads BTW

Y'know, you'd get 90% of what you want by using cloistered cleric from UA or Achivist from Heroes of Horror as your core priest class.

 

[lukelightning]

Dislike: The name; they should be called 'Priests'

I like "cleric." It's more generic and neutral and is a better blanket term for religous specialist. Just like "fighter" could mean a soldier or armsman or bodyguard or mercenary, or rogue could be a thief or a sneak or a thug or whatever.