clerics

[kolikeos]

people around here say the cleric is overpowered. why do you think so? im palying a cleric in my current game and it does not seem all that powerfull comperd to the other players at all.

 

[Dog Moon]

What level are you?

 

[kolikeos]

im 10th level. and yes, i kick ass. but so do the other players.
but im asking about clerics in general, no matter what level.
as i see it now, the cleric has the same amount of power as any other calss.

 

[kolikeos]

ello? anybody? :\

 

[green slime]

Are you having Fun?

Are you having more fun than the other players?

Are the other players having more fun than you?

Why worry?

 

[drothgery]

ello? anybody? :\

Basically, it's very possible for a cleric to fight nearly as well as the fighter and cast spells nearly as well as the wizard, and throw in the anti-undead schtick just for fun.

 

[megamania]

Like any of the classes, there are ways to overpower a class.

I just made a possible mistake by allowing a player to introduce a Centaur with Warhulk prestige levels and monkey grip.

I swore never to try to kill a character on purpose but this one warrents a second look. I have come to hate that Mighty blow crap.


Back to the cleric- I find a dwarven fighter/cleric is very sturdy and powerful but otherwise I have yet to see a clear sign of clerics being more powerful. I believe the powering up of them is easier.

If there is something I still think is over powered is a Fighter / archer. How many times can I introduce a wind storm or thick fog just as combat begins?

 

[riprock]

I've played a lot of campaigns where the party would end up getting stuck somewhere without the possibility of resting to regain spells.

So frequently the wizard would run out of spells first. The fighter and thief would still be able to use all their abilities. The cleric would get to pick and choose who got healed and who didn't -- thus the cleric has power over the others.

In 3.0/3.5, clerics don't have to be responsible to a deity, so that's a big slice of power right there.

If your DM allows clerics to take the Domain of Madness, they can jack up their extra spells in proportion to their levels. That means the cleric will have enough extra spells to cast spells alongside the wizard and still have spell slots left over with which to heal everyone.

Oh, yeah, and they get heavy armor and maces, so they get a chance to at least stand at the front and try to hit something while the wizard is cowering at the back of the party and feeling bored and worthless.

Even if they never run into undead, clerics are a big win. They are the class most able to defeat an entire dungeon solo. Everybody needs clerics, and clerics don't need anybody. This has been altered a bit in 3.0/3.5 with wands of healing, but wands can get broken or used up.

Recently, however, the Complete Arcane introduced warlocks. Warlocks are something antithetical to the old spirit of the AD&D magic-user: they are magic-users who never run out of offensive ranged attacks. It's a great idea -- Superman never ran out of heat vision -- and it's very powerful in campaigns where the DM likes to isolate the party in hostile territory and wear down their resources.

To give you some idea of the old ways, here's a quote from Role Playing Mastery:

In both the D&D and AD&D games, the spell-using power of
PCs is controlled through the use of a system that requires study
and memorization of magic spells before they can be cast. Then,
once a spell is used, the ability to cast it is erased from the
character’s mind until that character again takes time to study and
memorize the particular spell. Well, some years back, there arose a
line of thinking that asserted that magic in a fantasy game was
best expressed in terms of spell points-characters should be able
to cast a certain spell often and repeatedly, with each usage simply
costing the caster a specified number of “points” from his magical
ability. The D&D and AD&D games were criticized harshly by
advocates of this approach for being behind the times. The fad
lasted for a time, with spell-casters spewing forth streams of
sorcerous stuff as if they were magical Gatling guns.
Everyone wanted to be a magic-user of that sort-but what could stand
before such a character? How much fun is a game in which any
challenge or problem can be overcome by calling up yet another
spell from a seemingly limitless storehouse of energy? Good-bye,
spell-point magic system. This is not a condemnation of the idea
of using a point system, but the point system as advocated did not
fit the D&D or AD&D game system spells, rules, assumptions, or
spirit. The idea is workable still, but needs its own body of
surrounding material to operate effectively.

Warlocks are even worse than the spell point system, because they never, ever run out. For many campaigns, that's even more broken than clerics.

However, what constitutes an overpowered class depends on the challenges the DM throws at you. If you're in a situation where everyone has to be stealthy and sneak up on enemies for a one-shot kill, thieves are overpowered.

 

[Nifft]

Clerics have a number of powerful abilities.

1/ Heavy Armor. It's really nice at low to mid levels.

2/ Spell List. It's a decent list, but it has some "role-killers" that trump other people at what those other people are supposed to do best. Divine power is the chief culprit, but righteous might and divine favor are pretty strong too.

Then we have find traps.

3/ Splat-loaded spell list. Every new book automatically expands your spell list, at least the way WotC rules. Your DM may vary (and probably should).

4/ Turn Undead. Not that strong in itself, but there are a large number of feats that allow you to do something really strong with it. Especially "Divine Metamagic". Oy vey.

5/ However, the Cleric's most powerful class feature is: no class features after 1st level. You can take a Prestige Class and lose nothing.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Chimera]

The whole Warlock thing has been discussed in other threads. Yeah, they can do it all day. But they have extremely limited abilities, their blasts do not do all that much damage, and those in themselves can only be used once per round, whereas at higher levels, most people are going to be enjoying multiple attacks.

Clerics can be powerful, as people have said, in that they can turn undead, fight in heavy armor (right up there with the Fighter, albeit with lower BAB), buff themselves or others to stand toe-to-toe with the Fighters, heal themselves and their friends, and use spells against their foes. All at the same time.

Clerics are pretty much the most flexible class in terms of how they can be designed and played.