D&D 5E Climbing a tower rules 5e

[Mannahnin]

Time pressure isn't the issue here. If he tried swimming that five miles on a lazy day with no enemies anywhere near, he might still drown in the attempt.

Some physical feats of climbing or swimming are challenging on their own. Like swimming the English Channel, or climbing Koshtra Belorn.

 

[iserith]

For me, it detracts from verisimilitude and the level of simulation I find appropriate and enjoyable for the game.

I'm not throwing in a random newly-created obstacle because I want to invent a reason for a check. I'm refereeing the game world and the situation of swimming the five mile lake in my judgement seems like a task whose outcome is uncertain and which has consequences for failure. As I read the rules, this seems like a legitimate occasion for a check.

Why isn't the reason for the obstacle simply that you want to present a fantastical world to your players? I certainly am not putting it in there because I want there to be a check. There might be a check, just like there might be a check in your game without the obstacle I suggested. It depends entirely on what the player does in the face of the obstacle.

 

[Charlaquin]

Time pressure isn't the issue here. If he tried swimming that five miles on a lazy day with no enemies anywhere near, he might still drown in the attempt.

Not according to the rules governing swimming in D&D 5e.

 

[Mannahnin]

Not according to the rules governing swimming in D&D 5e.

I disagree with your interpretation. It seems to rely on an ambiguity and produce an absurd result. ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[Charlaquin]

I disagree with your interpretation. It seems to rely on an ambiguity

I don’t agree that the rule in question is ambiguous.

and produce an absurd result. ¯\(ツ)/¯

It may be absurd when judged by the standard of a simulation of distance swimming in real life. That’s not something I’m particularly concerned with. If you are, it makes sense that you would want to rule differently in this situation, and more power to you in doing so.

 

[Maxperson]

Not according to the rules governing swimming in D&D 5e.

But there is according to the rules governing ability checks. If the player attempts an action that is not so easy as to have no chance of failure, such as swimming 5 miles, and is not impossible, like swimming 5 miles, an ability check is appropriate. The rules do not exist in a vacuum. They interact with each other and that's a good thing.

You might allow swimming 5 miles or 50000 miles through calm water without a check, since the swimming rules don't say there is one. That works for you and is allowed under the rules. @Mannahnin might decide that swimming 5 miles is hard, but not impossible and therefore an ability check is required. This works for him and is also allowed under the rules.

 

[Charlaquin]

But there is according to the rules governing ability checks.

Correct, but the rules for swimming are more specific, and specific rules always supersede general rules in 5e.

If the player attempts an action that is not so easy as to have no chance of failure, such as swimming 5 miles, and is not impossible, like swimming 5 miles, an ability check is appropriate.

But swimming 5 miles doesn’t have a chance of failure according to the specific rules for swimming.

The rules do not exist in a vacuum. They interact with each other and that's a good thing.

Indeed, and one of the ways in which they interact is that specific beats general.

You might allow swimming 5 miles or 50000 miles through calm water without a check, since the swimming rules don't say there is one. That works for you and is allowed under the rules. @Mannahnin might decide that swimming 5 miles is hard, but not impossible and therefore an ability check is required.

Indeed! If they wish to disregard the specific rules for swimming because doing so produces an outcome they find preferable, they can and should do so.

This works for him and is also allowed under the rules.

I am less concerned with what is “allowed under the rules” than with what the rules say to do. The rules say you can change the rules, so literally anything is allowed under the rules, making it not a useful evaluation tool. What the rules say to do is clear, but you are certainly allowed to disregard them if you want to.

 

[Mannahnin]

I don’t agree that the rule in question is ambiguous.

It may be absurd when judged by the standard of a simulation of distance swimming in real life. That’s not something I’m particularly concerned with. If you are, it makes sense that you would want to rule differently in this situation, and more power to you in doing so.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps it's not ambiguous, and the absurd outcome is evidence that your interpretation is simply wrong. The product of a too-narrow reading and a misapplication of the general rules for checks and specific rules for swimming.

 

[Charlaquin]

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps it's not ambiguous, and the absurd outcome is evidence that your interpretation is simply wrong.

I’m open to the possibility that my interpretation of the rules is wrong, but the outcome not matching with what we might expect in real life is not evidence of it being so. There are lots of rules which produce outcomes that don’t match what might be expected in real life. It’s a game of heroic fantasy, the outcomes we might expect in real life are a poor metric for determining the intent of the rules.

The product of a too-narrow reading and a misapplication of the general rules for checks.

The specific rules supersede the general rules. If my reading is incorrect (which I don’t think it is, but I’ll explore the possibility for the sake of the discussion), the error definitely lies in my reading of the specific rules for swimming being narrower than the intent.

 

[Mannahnin]

I'm working from the premise that the natural language-based approach is meant to empower players to interact with the world in naturalistic ways, except where specified to the contrary.

My readings of all of the rules for checks seem to generally support this premise.

I definitely agree that lots of stuff in D&D is designed to work very much contrary to what we'd expect in real life, but I don't see any textual reason to think the swimming or climbing rules are designed to do so, except to a limited extent to make these things easier to do while wearing adventuring gear.