Cloak of Mage Armor

[Elethiomel]

So? If they are below +6 some amount of Gold is still saved by using the Armor instead!! You could get the Extra Items and Enhancements I mentioned all the way down to about Bracers of Armor +3.

Because it is the price point at which the comparison to the padded armor is the worst - below, and the price difference is lower. Above, and the price difference is irrelevant because you can't get the padded armor to higher than +5.

Enhancement Bonuses to Ability Scores can be Added to any Item without the Extra Ability Cost.

Assuming the MIC is in play and that that slot is not already taken up with an ability score (DEX for gloves, CON for belt) - and no, not any item. Only items that have an affinity for that ability score. And those slots have many other useful affinities. Like DEX and CON.

As for the MIC quote on easy travel, I had assumed that you correctly summarised the enhancement the first time you mentioned it.

A High Dexterity Score already Protects against Incorporeal Touch Attacks. What Extra Protection are you wanting over someone who did not put as much Effort into Dexterity?

The extra protection neccessary to avoid being one-shotted by Stat drainers at high levels due to low stats that aren't DEX.

How about you Buy that Cheap Item that I already mentioned earlier in this Thread? 3000 Gold Pieces and Incorporeal Attackers have a -10 Penalty on Touch Attacks against your Character!

Nice, extra bonus against incorporeal touch attacks! That still doesn't invalidate the Bracers of Armor bonus, though.

 

[Slaved]

One way, it's an enhancement bonus on the item which stacks with the armor bonus of that item for the purposes of the Magic Vestment spell, which is 'none'.

The other way, it's an enhancement bonus on one item, which doesn't stack with the armor bonus on a different item.

Either way, it's not an enhancement bonus that stacks with the +X armor bonus granted by Bracers of Armor, because it doesn't enhance that armor bonus.

If the Bracers are part of the outfit of clothing, their armor bonus for the purpose of the Magic Vestment spell is 'none'. If they aren't part of the outfit of clothing, they're not a valid target for Magic Vestment.

There isn't a way to cast Magic Vestment on the Bracers with them being treated for the purposes of the spell as having an armor bonus that isn't 'none'.

-Hyp.

Why are you ignoring the Stacking Rules?

 

[Slaved]

Because it is the price point at which the comparison to the padded armor is the worst - below, and the price difference is lower. Above, and the price difference is irrelevant because you can't get the padded armor to higher than +5.

Above Bracers of Armor +6 and the Price continues to climb dramatically!! A Level 15 Character has a lot of Wealth but you are talking about an Enormous amount of Gold Use even for them!!

Assuming the MIC is in play and that that slot is not already taken up with an ability score (DEX for gloves, CON for belt) - and no, not any item. Only items that have an affinity for that ability score. And those slots have many other useful affinities. Like DEX and CON.

As for the MIC quote on easy travel, I had assumed that you correctly summarised the enhancement the first time you mentioned it.

Why does it matter if the Item already has an Enhancement Bonus on it? With the Magic Item Compendium the Extra Enhancement is put on without Extra Cost for Extra Abilities.

And I did Summarize the Ability the first time I mentioned it! Losing access to other Abilities sounds like a Penalty to me!

The extra protection neccessary to avoid being one-shotted by Stat drainers at high levels due to low stats that aren't DEX.

What does this have to do with anything???? The Extra Dexterity is already providing Protection!

Nice, extra bonus against incorporeal touch attacks! That still doesn't invalidate the Bracers of Armor bonus, though.

I am talking about the Bracers of Armor Cost not the Bonus that it gives! Extra Protection against Incorporeal Attacks is a Footnote at best and Should Not cost a Significant Amount of extra Gold.

 

[Nail]

Why are you ignoring the Stacking Rules?

How is he ignoring the Stacking rules?

Oh, I can't help it. here's a "new" smiley. Think: sideways smile.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why are you ignoring the Stacking Rules?

I'm not ignoring the stacking rules.

I'm pointing out that Magic Vestment doesn't enhance the armor bonus of Bracers of Armor.

It either enhances the armor bonus of a suit of armor or shield, which Bracers aren't, or it enhances "no armor bonus" on an outfit of regular clothing.

-Hyp.

 

[Elethiomel]

Above Bracers of Armor +6 and the Price continues to climb dramatically! A Level 15 Character has a lot of Wealth but you are talking about an Enormous amount of Gold Use even for them!

Yes, it does. And why are you limiting it to level 15? My character example was one example where I chose to buy Bracers of Armor rather than other armor for good reasons - these reasons become better the higher level the character is.

Why does it matter if the Item already has an Enhancement Bonus on it? With the Magic Item Compendium the Extra Enhancement is put on without Extra Cost for Extra Abilities.

Ah, I see. The MIC doesn't limit how many bonuses are on each item; that was a house rule I've been playing with and I apologise for the misunderstanding. You're right. Weight doesn't matter.

And I did Summarize the Ability the first time I mentioned it! Losing access to other Abilities sounds like a Penalty to me!

No, it isn't. A penalty in DnD is a reduction of a numeric stat.

What does this have to do with anything???? The Extra Dexterity is already providing Protection!

Yes, it is. But so is the Bracers of Armor. Having low stats beside dexterity makes more protection = better, especially with the poor scaling of AC vs To Hit in DnD. That goes doubly for Touch AC.

I am talking about the Bracers of Armor Cost not the Bonus that it gives! Extra Protection against Incorporeal Attacks is a Footnote at best and Should Not cost a Significant Amount of extra Gold.

It doesn't cost a significant amount of extra gold. Here, let me break it down for you:

Bracers of Armor is basically a +0 AC light armor with infinite Max Dex, 0% ASF and 0 ACP which you can enhance up to +8 from the base value (better, normal armor can only be enhanced to +5 from the base value), can't have other armor enhancements on it (worse), doesn't count as armor for classes that are restricted from wearing armor (better), and counts against incorporeal touch attacks (better).
As you can see, in addition to having no hard cap on the sum of Armor AC+DEX it only has one worse quality from regular light armor, and three better qualities. You are taking each point of these and saying about each of them "this isn't worth much". But they all add up.

 

[Will]

From the peanut gallery, I'd point out that 'can't have other armor enhancements' is a somewhat minimal restriction. Among other things, in the games I've been in, few people ever bother with enhancements other than a simple bonus.

 

[Slaved]

Yes, it does. And why are you limiting it to level 15? My character example was one example where I chose to buy Bracers of Armor rather than other armor for good reasons - these reasons become better the higher level the character is.

I used Level 15 because it is close to the Example given. I still see your Example as not being Well Defined and an Extreme Case. Neither give me much to work with!!

Ah, I see. The MIC doesn't limit how many bonuses are on each item; that was a house rule I've been playing with and I apologise for the misunderstanding. You're right. Weight doesn't matter.

House Rules do get in the way sometimes!!

No, it isn't. A penalty in DnD is a reduction of a numeric stat.

I gave a Summary of what the Enhancements Abilities are. What did you think the Ability did based on my Summary?

Yes, it is. But so is the Bracers of Armor. Having low stats beside dexterity makes more protection = better, especially with the poor scaling of AC vs To Hit in DnD. That goes doubly for Touch AC.

OF COURSE More is Better!!! But this Side Topic does not help the discussion!!

It doesn't cost a significant amount of extra gold.

I have been told in this Thread that Protection from Incorporeal Attacks should cost a Significant Amount!

Here, let me break it down for you:

Bracers of Armor is basically a +0 AC light armor with infinite Max Dex, 0% ASF and 0 ACP which you can enhance up to +8 from the base value (better, normal armor can only be enhanced to +5 from the base value), can't have other armor enhancements on it (worse), doesn't count as armor for classes that are restricted from wearing armor (better), and counts against incorporeal touch attacks (better).
As you can see, in addition to having no hard cap on the sum of Armor AC+DEX it only has one worse quality from regular light armor, and three better qualities. You are taking each point of these and saying about each of them "this isn't worth much". But they all add up.

The Maximum Dexterity Bonus is an Issue with how many Characters? Of those how many would still be better off Wearing Armor over the Bracers?

Few Light Armors will have an Armor Check Penalty less than 0, Arcane Spell Failure only matters for Characters that have Access to Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor, and I would not treat Starting at 0 Armor Bonus to be a Small Matter!!!

Being able to Buy up to a +8 Armor Bonus is nice but it comes with the price of Starting Lower to begin with!! Those last points of Armor Bonus are also Vastly More Expensive than the Initial Points of Armor.

The Armor I mentioned earlier has a Maximum Dexterity Bonus of +10. It also has a Maximum Armor Bonus of +6 when a +5 Enhancement is placed upon it. It Costs 25405 Gold Pieces.

The Equivalent Bracers of Armor cost 36000 Gold Pieces. They are able to be Increased up to +8 which would cost 64000 Gold Pieces.

That means that the Character Wearing the Armor has nearly 40000 Gold Pieces to use to catch up with 2 Points of Armor. Unless each Character already has Every Defensive Item in the Game below this amount of Gold it should be possible to accomplish that goal and more!

There is also the Third Level Spell Greater Mage Armor from the Spell Compendium which deserves an Extra Mention. It has the same Long Duration as Mage Armor and gives a +6 Force Armor Bonus.

 

[Elethiomel]

I used Level 15 because it is close to the Example given. I still see your Example as not being Well Defined and an Extreme Case. Neither give me much to work with!

You asked who and why. I answered. I'm sorry if the answer is not to your liking - had that character been played any further, it would have been a better case (and a more extreme example on top of it).

I gave a Summary of what the Enhancements Abilities are. What did you think the Ability did based on my Summary?

I thought the enhancement in question (Easy Travel) eliminated the speed reduction, the max dex reduction, and the check penalty listed in the Encumbrance section of the PHB

I have been told in this Thread that Protection from Incorporeal Attacks should cost a Significant Amount!

I don't know about that. Maybe it should. But it doesn't.

The Maximum Dexterity Bonus is an Issue with how many Characters? Of those how many would still be better off Wearing Armor over the Bracers?

Any who wants to buy the bracers of armor, and none, respectively. I'm going to cut most of the rest of the quoting out here, because I think you're not getting what I'm getting at.

If you have a character with a dex modifier of +12, bracers will give you a higher sum of AC than any other armor option, for the same (actually lower, as you don't need to buy the base armor) cost. That's it.

Yes, few characters will have a dex modifier of +12, and they will tend to have it at high levels, but that's irrelevant. These characters can exist within the core ruleset (PHB, DMG, MM only), which can't be said about many other extreme characters at these levels. That bracers of armor has a niche market doesn't prevent them from being bought by that niche market, and making them cheaper would make that niche market more powerful by giving them more money to spare.

Full Plate +1 is a much, much cheaper way to get 9 Armor AC than a Chain Shirt +5. Why? Because with the Chain Shirt, you have an additional 3 AC you can get out of Dexterity. According to your argument (which seems to be that "Armor bonus is all that matters, the max dex is irrelevant and any other abilities are footnotes at best"), these two armors should cost the same.

There is also the Third Level Spell Greater Mage Armor from the Spell Compendium which deserves an Extra Mention. It has the same Long Duration as Mage Armor and gives a +6 Force Armor Bonus.

That's great! For arcane casters. And people who happen to be friends with arcane casters. For everyone else, there's Bracers or Armor.

 

[VanRichten]

Originally Posted by Slaved
I am talking about the Bracers of Armor Cost not the Bonus that it gives! Extra Protection against Incorporeal Attacks is a Footnote at best and Should Not cost a Significant Amount of extra Gold.

Well if we consider this line of thinking. Lets put these bracers on someone and see what happens.

Since we have spoken about a level 15 character lets use that as our example. Now lets take said character and make him so that he has a 30 dex since this was spoken as well. Now lets take into account that said character has done everything gear and level wise to increase its dex to this level. Thus giving him an impressive level of Touch AC being 20 on without any added effects.

Now lets take that character and put him up against say a Shadow for which is both incorporeal and low level. Now lets up this shadow to a level equivalent with what would be a challenge for said 15th level character. Given the 15th level character would be a Rogue on average and can't be flat footed it is more than likely that the Shadow in question would only have to deal with a Touch AC of 20. Sounds pretty nice huh? But what happens when the shadow has had a few hits on this character. Since we know that the character has put everything into dex, we can imagine that he has lost a lot of bonus to strength. Meaning that he would easily lose all strength after only a few hits from said Shadow. At the point he hits 0 strength he no longer has that nice Touch AC of 20 it now drops to 10 at best.

So lets change this character and give him Bracers of Armor +6. And only a 18 Dex. Even if the shadow drops the character to 0 Strength he still has an Armor of 16 at least. Due to the Incorporeal Protection he has from the bracers.

So in this situation we can see how part of the price of the Bracers of Armor is factored into it, and not just a footnote.

And if you think this won't occur. Run through Ravenloft and show me how that 30 Dex character is so much better than having Bracers of Armor +6. When you come back on your 3rd or 4th character you will know.