Shin Okada
Explorer
Slaved said:
Because there are a lot of Incorporeal Undead creatures. And their attacks tend to have lower attack bonus but the damages are deadly.
Cloak of Mage Armor
- Thread starter arnon
- Start date
Because there are a lot of Incorporeal Undead creatures. And their attacks tend to have lower attack bonus but the damages are deadly.
Elethiomel
First Post
At least two of my characters. At least 4 characters in as many campaigns.Slaved said:
An excellent example would be my level 13 Catfolk Ranger/Scout who had a +10 DEX modifier.
Shin Okada
Explorer
Sorry if I am misunderstanding. But for me, it seems that the OP is playing and found that the monk class is rather ineffective, and believing that if he could have AC bonus cheaper it will fix the character or at least improve the character significantly.
If so, that approach is wrong because of those 2 facts.
1. Bracers of Armor, or similar items are, not just for monks.
It is already pointed out by many posters with reasons. By making Bracers of Armor cheaper or making cheaper items with identical ability, not only monks but other monsters and characters who are benefitted from such an item will become stronger, though there is no need for them to fix.
2. The weakness of Monk class is not just AC. It is too late.
It is argued again and again and again and again and.... many people tried to make a truly effective monk character. But many failed. Who managed to make some nice but really extreme build, which often involves prestige class with spell-casting ability or special feats which are setting specific or need careful role playing (like Vow of Poverty). And the former options are, more like spell casters with some monk abilities, rather than to be monks with spell-casting abilities.
Monks are weak in 3.Xe. Period. Either don't play it or play it for flavor even if it is not as effective as other standard classes as a melee combatant. You need tremendous effort if you really want to make a monk into well-balanced tier 1 class.
If so, that approach is wrong because of those 2 facts.
1. Bracers of Armor, or similar items are, not just for monks.
It is already pointed out by many posters with reasons. By making Bracers of Armor cheaper or making cheaper items with identical ability, not only monks but other monsters and characters who are benefitted from such an item will become stronger, though there is no need for them to fix.
2. The weakness of Monk class is not just AC. It is too late.
It is argued again and again and again and again and.... many people tried to make a truly effective monk character. But many failed. Who managed to make some nice but really extreme build, which often involves prestige class with spell-casting ability or special feats which are setting specific or need careful role playing (like Vow of Poverty). And the former options are, more like spell casters with some monk abilities, rather than to be monks with spell-casting abilities.
Monks are weak in 3.Xe. Period. Either don't play it or play it for flavor even if it is not as effective as other standard classes as a melee combatant. You need tremendous effort if you really want to make a monk into well-balanced tier 1 class.
Elethiomel said:
This does not answer Who or Why very well. Could you provide more details? A +10 Dexterity Modifier at Level 13 is Very High. Was this Game well over the Assumed Level of Power for Characters?
From Races of the Wild where the Catfolk are for 3.5 there is a Light Armor which has a +10 Maximum Dexterity Modifier. Why not use that instead?
Shin Okada
Explorer
Slaved said:
Well, even in core MM, you can find 5 incorporeal undead creatures. And one is template, and other two have variant (Wraith/Dread wraith, Shadow/Greater Shadow). This is only slightly above 1% of the entire monsters in MM. But actually, those creatures are quite popular in many published (or otherwise written) adventures.
if you read official modules, you will notice that there are so many encounters against incorporeal undead creatures at any level. In my understanding, they are popular because,
1. Undead
Indeed. Undead monsters are so popular at any level. Many of the DnD adventures involves closed dungeon environment, And Undead monsters (basically) exist forever and don't need food or water.
2. Stands out
Even amongst undead monsters, they look special, Thus loved by many authors and DMs who love to include some "different" encounter or two.
3. Effective against higher level PCs.
You will not see many CR 3 creatures, say worg or ogre, in many adventures designed for 10th-level party, even as minions of BBEG or grants of med-class- bosses. But you will see Shadow (also CR3) in many of such adventures. While usual creature of that CR are not threat at all to the characters of that level (even as a supporting soldier), shadows can often do some damages to even a 10th-level fighters and such. And because of incorporeality, they survive many attacks, both physical and magical ones. So, you tend to see many low-CR incorporeal undead creatures than other creatures of the same CR.
4. Villains can summon!
Supplements introduced Summon Undead spells and there are classes and monsters (like nightshades) who can summon incorporeal undead. And, because of the reason (3), incorporeal undead monsters are good choice for summoning.
Elethiomel
First Post
Slaved said:
Not really. 17 (start) +3 (levels) +4 (racial) +6 (item) = 30. You just have to focus in it.
And yeah, 36000 is a significant chunk of 150000 (Catfolk have +1 LA, so we have an ECL 14 character, hence if we follow expected wealth per level in the DMG the character would have 150 000 available for starting gear), but when you focus in DEX that's worth it.
Because the moment the character started getting Inherent bonuses to DEX it would be pointless. It doesn't scale. And the protection from incorporeal touch attacks is significant for a character who focuses in one stat; such a character tends to have relatively lower STR and CON, the most commonly useful stats for surviving hits from incorporeal undead (they often drain STR or CON or there's a fort save to negate whatever effect).Slaved said:
[Edit: Oh, yeah, and light armour - even 5lbs-light armour - still weighs significantly more than bracers. Again, for a character that doesn't put much into STR, that counts.]
Shin Okada said:
There are many Templates in the Monstrous Manual. The Ghost Template Creates a Monster that does not have to be a Foe.
Undead are seen often but Incorporeal Undead are only a small portion of Undead.
I would expect to see a Shadow at High Levels about as often as a handful of Stirge. That is to say Rarely.
None of what you say here leads me to believe that Incorporeal Foes are anywhere near Common enough to Warrant a Significant Price Boost.
Elethiomel said:
With a 17 Starting Dexterity Score the rest of your Ability Scores would suffer unless you are playing with a High Point Buy. When you had said Level 13 I thought you were already including the Level Adjustment. 36000 of 110000 is a much more Significant Investment!
You would be better off buying up your Armor Class with other Items long before Inherant Bonuses to Dexterity became an Issue! 36000 for Bracers of Armor +6 and 36000 for an Enhancement to Dexterity +6 is rather a lot even when you have 150000 to play with!
Catfolk are Medium Creatures which puts your Strength Score at a Minimum of 8. Is 1 Pound versus 5 Pounds truly a Big Problem? With the 11000 Gold you would save from the Bracers of Armor you could get an Enhancement to Strength of +2!! You can even add Easy Travel to it from the Magic Item Compendium for 1500 which would allow you to Carry up to your Medium Load without incurring Penalties and March for 10 Hours per Day before making Constitution Checks!!!
VanRichten
First Post
Something tells me at this point this has become trying to beat down a brick wall with your head. Eventually you just get bloody and stupid. 
