Cloaks of Charisma, Peripats of Wisdom, etc, QUESTIONS!

[MThibault]

This situation has never come up in my campaigns, but if halfway through the day, a spellcaster were to lose bonus spells from a high ability score, which spells would she lose?

I don't see there being a separate category (as with Domain Spells) for bonus spells. They seem to just add to your pool of slots available. Did you prepare Sleep or Magic Missile with your bonus slot? You could have cast either spell anyway (niether requires a higher ability score) so there is nothing to differentiate them.

If you do rule that there are distinct bonus slots, then the wizard (or worse, Sorcerer or Bard) could just make sure that he uses the bonus slot first so if he takes ability damage later he won't lose that spell.

I guess I would just roll randomly from the remaining spells prepared/spell slots. That way the penalty for stat damage or loss is always the same.

Any other ways of approaching this?

Cheers.

 

[Dakhran the Dark]

I'd say that much like with Energy Drain, the caster can choose which spell he loses for each spell level...

 

[kreynolds]

I'd roll randomly to see which slot vanishes.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

I'd say choice, since you get the choice in any other example, i.e. level or stat loss. You'd also get the DC boost immediatley, just like a spell.

I'm sure this has been asked before, but does it say anywhere that an item gives the extra slots? Since they are based of of the spells which do not give extra slots, my group has always just assumed that they do not either.

 

[kreynolds]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but does it say anywhere that an item gives the extra slots?

Here's an old Sage reply on it...and a grain of salt...

hello, I have a question about bonus spells due to high stats.

if a wizard has an int of 18 he gets a bonus 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spell slot. if he then has wish cast on him 4 times to raise his int to 22 does he get an additional 5th, 6th, 1st, 2nd level spell slots as the chart indicates?

Yes.

what if instead of wish he got a headband of int +4? would that make a difference?

Yes, but only if he/she were wearing the headband while preparing the spells. If he/she loses the headband, the extra spells are lost. (You lose one spell of a level at least as high as your old ability bonus. For example, if your Int was 22 (+6) and you lose 4 points, dropping your Int to 18 (+4) you lose a 6th- and 5th-level spell. The list spells must be ones have ready have to cast (not one you've already cast). If you don't have a spell of the appropriate level ready to cast, you can lose another spell of your choice.

also I assume that because wizards memorize their spells that he would not get any bonus spells until the next day, what if it was a sorcerer with charisma instead? would they get bonus spells now, or 24 hours later, or never?

See previous answer for the wizard,. In the case of the sorcerer, the item needs to be in place during the 15-minute "ready period" each day (see page 156 in the PH).

The 24 hour "waiting period" for gaining spells isn't official. AFAIK, that's actually a house rule that this board came up with a while back, and you just need to be wearing the item at the time of preparation or meditation or whatever to gain the slots. Just don't lose the item afterwards.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

By the letter of the law, you don't lose any prepped spells just because your stat has dropped. You are still restricted by the spells per day, of course.

Yes, that means it is possible I have, say, three prepped 4th level spells while, at that exact moment, only being allowed to cast two of them that day.

The Sage's ruling makes sense. Can't dispute that. Unfortunately I believe it is based "merely" on common sense instead of the actual rules.

 

[kreynolds]

By the letter of the law, you don't lose any prepped spells just because your stat has dropped.

So if a wizard's Intelligence drops from 25 to 15, he doesn't lose any spell slots at all? What about Ability Damage or Ability Drain, both of which net the exact same effect (unless you're using the variant rule for ability loss from the DMG)? I think it's safe to call me skeptical on that ruling.

 

[Quidam]

I'd rule that you'd only lose spells if your new spells/day is lower than the number of spells you still have left uncast.

I see the bonus spells as a form of encanced capacity. If the size of the glass decreases but by that time is only half full, why would you lose any water?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

So if a wizard's Intelligence drops from 25 to 15, he doesn't lose any spell slots at all? What about Ability Damage or Ability Drain, both of which net the exact same effect (unless you're using the variant rule for ability loss from the DMG)? I think it's safe to call me skeptical on that ruling.

There you go again ... getting distracted by common sense.

Seriously, the Sage's ruling is not a bad way to play. Heck, I admit common sense would say he is right. I just don't think it is actually supported by the rules.

If we go by the letter of the law, we do not find any mention of losing spells under Ability Damage, Ability Drained (DMG p. 83), or Ability Score loss (DMG p. 72).

What I am really saying is ignoring the possible loss of prepped spells is perfectly playable.

Is it actually a problem if someone has more prepped spells than they can cast that day? No. He just has the option of prepping fewer spells the next morning. This would be a bizarre tactic to use on purposefully after all.

The only real problem is if smartass PCs try to play Pass the Headband of Intellect games in the morning. Whether you go with my answer or the Sage's you still (may) have to cross that bridge on your own.

The advantage of not using the Sage's ruling is you won't get a throbbing headache when PCs and NPCs step in and out of Anti-Magic zones, frex. That is not trivial scenario when you get up to higher levels.

 

[kreynolds]

There you go again ... getting distracted by common sense.

Heh. Yeah. It's a problem, I know.

Seriously, the Sage's ruling is not a bad way to play. Heck, I admit common sense would say he is right.

I agree.

If we go by the letter of the law, we do not find any mention of losing spells under Ability Damage, Ability Drained (DMG p. 83), or Ability Score loss (DMG p. 72).

If we go by the letter of the law on that page, you also don't suffer an AC or attack penalty for losing points in Dexterity, neither do you suffer an attack penalty for losing points in Strength, and neither do you suffer a penalty to Fortitude saves for losing points in Constitution even though you lose hit points because your Con modifier drops.

However, Chapter 1 of the PH specifically states what each ability modifier applies to. So, by the letter of the law, if your modifier is dropped, you suffer the penalties of a lowered modifier. Even from a rules-lawyer perspective, there really isn't any room for discussion.

It also specifically states that a wizard gains bonus spells based upon their Intelligence score. If your Intelligence score cannot support those bonus spells, then you lose them. You don't gain bonus spells only when you level. You gain them whenever your Intelligence score goes up, which means you lose them whenever your Intelligence score goes down.

Personally, I don't think it's just a matter of commen sense.

The advantage of not using the Sage's ruling is you won't get a throbbing headache when PCs and NPCs step in and out of Anti-Magic zones, frex. That is not trivial scenario when you get up to higher levels.

I completely agree that this is definately a hassle. In fact, the Most Hated Ranger Ever in one of my games is trying to get a hold of some Antimagic Arrows. Still, the rules are clear on this, but in situations like this, the variant rule in the DMG is easier to work with.