Close-Quater Feats

[iamtheend]

When you make a special attack which grants your opponent an AoO and they cause damage it's to my understanding that your special attack fails.

So there is a feat called Close-Quarters Fighting that will allow you to take an AoO and put the damage from it into your grapple check. So this doesn't stop the Grapple but is that because the text of the feat or is it because they have Improved Grapple?

What's stopping me from making a Special attack back like a Trip for my AoO? What happens if I trip a guy that is about to Grapple me with Improved Grapple?

Leading to this question. If I have Close-Quarter Defense can I stop Improved Special Attacks that are negated by causing damage or will Tripping work?

 

[javgoro]

When you make a special attack which grants your opponent an AoO it's to my understanding that your special attack fails.

As far as I know, there is nothing in the rules to support that theory. If you provoke an AoO you can get hit, but that doesn't stop your special attack (for example, when you bull rush an opponent without improved bull rush), unless the text of the special attack specifies that case. Case in point, with trip:

"Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks. If your attack succeeds..."

Nowhere here does it state that your trip attempt is stopped by the attack of opportunity, regardless of its outcome.

So there is a feat called Close-Quarters Fighting that will allow you to take an AoO and put the damage from it into your grapple check. So this doesn't stop the Grapple but is that because the text of the feat or is it because they have Improved Grapple?

If they don't have improved grapple, they cannot grab you, because of the text of the feat (normally they could, even if you gained an AoO for whatever the cause). If they have it, they can attempt to grab you, but at that point, CCD adds the damage of your attack to your grapple check, thus improving the chance to avoid being grappled.

What's stopping me from making a Special attack back like a Trip for my AoO? What happens if I trip a guy that is about to Grapple me with Improved Grapple?

Nothing stops you from doing that, and you can indeed trip the opponent (which would stop him trying to grapple you). That said, unless you run a trip-based build, I don't expect you to be very successful in tripping, say, a dragon. Also, remember that "you can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller." (straight from the SRD), and most enemies with improved grapple tend to be more than one size category above you.

Leading to this question. If I have Close-Quarter Defense can I stop Improved Special Attacks if cause damage or Trip them?

If you cause damage, no. That would only be a special case when it comes to grapples. See my first answer. If you trip them, it would depend on what special damage you are trying to prevent. You couldn't, for example, stop a rend from an enemy that has hit you with both claws, as that is not a grapple, so you cannot react to it with CCD

 

[iamtheend]

Sorry, I really didn't write that well.

What I meant to say is that if someone has Improved Grapple and you somehow damage them as an AoO shouldn't their special attack stop? Nothing in the text for Improve Grapple says otherwise and normally a grapple will stop. Close-Quarter Fighting says you may make an AoO to damage but it implies the damage won't stop the grapple. Why is that?

I read Trip more closely in that if I cause damage on an AoO it doesn't negate it.

So overall I'm asking if Close-Quarter Fighting is an exception of AoO damage to negate a special attack as well as asking if Improved Feats somehow allow you to take damage from AoO's in cases of CQD and continue with the disarm or grapple for example.

EDIT: Where in the feat says that creatures without Improved Grapple can no longer make grapple checks if I use the CQA feat?

 

[iamtheend]

Wow I'm sorry. This went right over my head. This is about GRAB and not GRAPPLE.

So this feat would not help me against someone trying to Start a Grapple check on me as normal but only if a Monster tried to grab me after making a successful attack?

 

[javgoro]

Ok, let's see if I can explain the whole situation in a way that makes sense, and hope it helps you understand things.

In a grapple:

Step 1

Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.



So, let's say you have an ogre (with DR 3/-) and a remorhaz. The ogre doesn't have improved grapple, while the remorhaz has it, and both are trying to attack Tordek the Fighter and Mialee the wizard. Tordek has CCD.


Ogre attacks Tordek, Tordek gains an AoO. That attack of opportunity hits, and since Tordek doesn't have IG, his grappling attempt is stopped (as per the text of CCF), whether Tordek's attack deals any damage or not.


Ogre attacks Mialee, Mialee takes an AoO, but that AoO deals 2 damage, and thus is negated by the Ogre's DR. The ogre proceeds to grapple.


Remorhaz attacks Mialee with a bite, and hits. Since the remorhaz has improved grab, he proceeds to grapple Mialee, who doesn't gain an AoO. Then the remorhaz proceeds to swallow Mialee on his next turn, as she's already grabbed. She gains no AoO against this.

Remorhaz attacks Tordek. Tordek gains an AoO, thanks to CCF (since improved grab would stop him from gaining it), and deals 10 damage to the remorhaz. If the remorhaz hadn't had Improved Grab, he couldn't try to grapple now (as per CCF), but unluckily for the dwarf, the creature has it. Tordek rolls his grapple test with a +10 bonus, but still loses to the remorhaz. On the next turn, Tordek is already grabbed, so the dragon proceeds to swallowing him. Since the dragon isn't trying to grapple him (even if swallowing him requires a grapple check), Tordek gets no AoO from CCF, nor a bonus to his roll.

Hope that's a bit clearer.

A small edit: I've used Improved Grapple and Improved Grab interchangeably in the post, but for all intents and purposes, they work the same way for Close Quarters Fighting.

 

[iamtheend]

I was actually using a bad source for the feat and I finally just opened my complete Warrior which made things a lot more clear. I don't get why the damage caused wouldn't negate a Improved Grapple since normal grapple would stop if damage was delt.

You wrote before that someone without Improve Grapple couldn't even grapple. Could you explain that or did I misread?

 

[javgoro]

I was actually using a bad source for the feat and I finally just opened my complete Warrior which made things a lot more clear. I don't get why the damage caused wouldn't negate a Improved Grapple since normal grapple would stop if damage was delt.

You wrote before that someone without Improve Grapple couldn't even grapple. Could you explain that or did I misread?

The damage caused by CCF wouldn't negate an Improved Grapple, as per the text of CCF, which explains what happens when you factor Improved Grapple. In a normal grapple, the damage would negate the grapple, but since there is no AoO with Improved Grapple, they clarify the effect of both together.

To summarize, even more back to basics:

Grappling without improved grapple/grab, against an enemy without CCF:
- You provoke an Attack of Opportunity. If that attack of opportunity hits and deals damage, you cannot continue grappling. If the AoO hits but deals no damage, you can still grapple.

Grappling without improved grapple/grab, against an enemy with CCF:
- You provoke an Attack of Opportunity. If that attack of opportunity hits you cannot continue grappling. If the AoO hits but deals no damage, you cannot grapple (thanks to CCF).

Grappling with improved grapple, against an enemy without CCF:
- You do not provoke an Attack of Opportunity. You grapple as normal.

Grappling with improved grapple, against an enemy with CCF:
- You provoke an Attack of Opportunity. You continue grappling, but if the attack hit, the defender adds the damage of that AoO to his grapple roll.

 

[Empirate]

Attempting to grab somebody normally draws an Attack of Opportunity. If this Attack of Opportunity hits and deals damage, the grapple attempt is stopped.

Improved Grapple, however, prevents the target from making an Attack of Opportunity in response to a grab attempt.

Close Quarters Fighting specifically spells out that you may make an Attack of Opportunity in response to any grab attempt, even if it is made by an opponent who has Improved Grapple. However, CQF also specifically spells out that a successful AoO against such an opponent does not stop the grab attempt - it only provides a bonus to your grapple check to resist establishing a hold. This bonus is as high as the damage you dealt with your AoO.


Seems all pretty clear. It's an arms race between the grappler and the grapplee: grappler gets Improved Grapple so he doesn't provoke. Grapplee gets CQF so the grappler does provoke again.
However, CQF only mitigates the advantage provided by Improved Grapple, in that the AoO (which the grapplee may now make again) doesn't stop the grappler cold, only provides a bonus to the grapplee.

 

[iamtheend]

Okay but a feat such as "Close-Quarter Defense" Allows you to make an AOO even with someone having Improved version.

My question is....

Damage delt from CQD from an improved grapple stop the grapple?

Damage delt from CQA won't stop the improved grapple only because of the text in the feat or is there some rule that I have yet to read that says improved grapples cannot be stopped by AoO's.

Yes I know it reads Improved removes the AoO but feats like CQD allow you to make them again so why wouldn't the grapple stop when damage is delt before it was made?

 

[javgoro]

Okay but a feat such as "Close-Quarter Defense" Allows you to make an AOO even with someone having Improved version.

My question is....

Damage delt from CQD from an improved grapple stop the grapple?

No, it wouldn't. The feat specifically says so. "If the enemy does not possess improved grapple or improved grab he cannot attempt to grab you, and in case he does, you add the damage dealt to your grapple roll." (paraphrased by me, since my books are in Spanish).

Damage delt from CQA won't stop the improved grapple only because of the text in the feat or is there some rule that I have yet to read that says improved grapples cannot be stopped by AoO's.

Improved grapples do not provoke AoO, therefore cannot normally stopped with an AoO. CQF is an exception to this, but it specifically states that it won't stop the grapple attempt in that case.

Yes I know it reads Improved removes the AoO but feats like CQD allow you to make them again so why wouldn't the grapple stop when damage is delt before it was made?

Because the feat does both things: allow you to take the AoO, and explain that even that won't stop the grapple attempt.

Quite frankly, I'm not sure how much simpler we can explain it, mate, I sure hope that's good enough.