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SweeneyTodd
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I'm kind of more interested in the immersion theory that mythusmage is apparently going to present ;ater, but I had to comment on the videogame thing.
If you're a member of the 13-20 videogame market, and your sole interset is butt-kicking power fantasies in a fantasy environment, D&D doesn't offer you much. That's the biggest reason why I don't think we can get away from selling the hobby as rewarding creativity -- if you stick to things a computer can do well as a GM, the computer does a lot of them better.
A lot of the games out there right now give fun, escapist action with little emphasis on immersion or story. Many of them offer opportunities for character optimization that are nice and crunchy, without slowing play at all. You can even play them with friends in your livingroom, or online.
Sure, there's a lot of things tabletop RPGs can do that video games can't. But your audience needs to value those things.
If you're a member of the 13-20 videogame market, and your sole interset is butt-kicking power fantasies in a fantasy environment, D&D doesn't offer you much. That's the biggest reason why I don't think we can get away from selling the hobby as rewarding creativity -- if you stick to things a computer can do well as a GM, the computer does a lot of them better.
A lot of the games out there right now give fun, escapist action with little emphasis on immersion or story. Many of them offer opportunities for character optimization that are nice and crunchy, without slowing play at all. You can even play them with friends in your livingroom, or online.
Sure, there's a lot of things tabletop RPGs can do that video games can't. But your audience needs to value those things.
SweeneyTodd said:
I'd have to strongly disagree with that. P&P games offer unlimited character customization and unlimited exploration in a way that computers can't yet (but within the next decade may be able to) achieve. So, if anything, the 13-20 videogame market may be the last generation for which P&P RPGs have anything to offer.
tetsujin28
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Word.mhacdebhandia said:
tetsujin28
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A computer is a very poor drinking buddy, I've found.pogre said:
Minis are totally important. I hate playing in games without themI think miniatures play a role in that too BTW
SweeneyTodd said:
Re Forge GNS - I agree with the original poster re the proper role of 'story'. Although I love Drama in my games, I have found Forge-style attempts to create Narrativist play through "Story Now" - "This is the Premise of this Scene/Session" - profoundly unsatisfying as a player and unworkable as a GM. To me it feels like by forcing a particular issue you're draining the life out of the game. The most moving dramatic moments I've experienced in play - where PCs had to make horribly difficult decisions - all arose naturally in play, rather than being pre-agreed by GM & players. And attempts to form a pre-session agreement on Premise were embarrassing and quickly abandoned.
Timeboxer
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I have to admit that I don't buy the premise of this thread. Quite a lot of cognitive linguistics work and science of the mind stuff has talked about the premise that fundamentally, the manner in which we understand and make sense of our world is through the act of storytelling -- humans are fundamentally storytelling creatures. Story isn't just past events; story is also a shape, a pattern. The actual events that occur are chaotic and random and unpredictable, but in order to make any sense out of them we arrange them into a "story"; without this construct, we would be unable to communicate the manner in which events happen.
As a result, RPGs, like most human pursuits, are another form of storytelling. The difference is that the narrative is built by more than one person, rather than just yourself. Improvisational round-robin storytelling is still storytelling; there's no reason that RPGs aren't, also.
As a result, RPGs, like most human pursuits, are another form of storytelling. The difference is that the narrative is built by more than one person, rather than just yourself. Improvisational round-robin storytelling is still storytelling; there's no reason that RPGs aren't, also.
Once again I see people are missing the point. You are not telling a story as you play, you are engaged in events as they occur. And as in real life the outcome of those events is not set. Even when a story uses the present tense the events are set, they are determined. You cannot chage them. A story is deterministic. The events in an RPG session are not determined. By the very nature of the beast they cannot be determined. There are too many variables, too many things that could change the outcome from what is desired to, more often than one would like, something quite undesired.
Yes, people do like to tell stories. No doubt after a good adventure stories will be told of the events. But while the adventure is being played the players are not telling a story, they are, in a very real sense, living the adventure. Stories are experience at a remove, adventures are immediate experience. You could turn an adventure into a story, but it stops being an adventure.
Story: An account of what has happened, regardless of how it is told.
RPG Session: Life in an imaginary world as it happens, for good or ill.
Yes, people do like to tell stories. No doubt after a good adventure stories will be told of the events. But while the adventure is being played the players are not telling a story, they are, in a very real sense, living the adventure. Stories are experience at a remove, adventures are immediate experience. You could turn an adventure into a story, but it stops being an adventure.
Story: An account of what has happened, regardless of how it is told.
RPG Session: Life in an imaginary world as it happens, for good or ill.
SweeneyTodd said:
(snip)
Sweeny, I excised much that is actually irrelevant to this discussion. Not because I disagree, but because I'd rather concentrate on my point. Suffice it to say I actually agree with much of what you said.
Which is (in response to your third point), not really. Immersion plus player autonomy has nothing to do with the case. The basic nature of a session is a fictional version of life, with all the attendant uncertainties and surprises thereof. An adventure can inspire a story, but it can never be a story without ending its utility as an adventure.
One thing to note here is that one does not have to immerse one's self in the events to treat an adventure as an imaginary life. Distancing is still possible. By treating the events in an adventure one opens up possibilities, and so opens up the adventure in ways treating it as a story does not allow.
This leads to plot, and that is a subject for a later posting.
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