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[mythusmage]

Close the damn thread.

MM EDIT - Whether the thread gets closed is ultimately up to P-Kitty & co but please don't use certain 4 letter words in thread titles even if they aren't blocked by the censorbot. thx.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

Okay, it looks like you wanted to continue discussion here rather than in the other two threads. I'll move my relevant questions and comments over here.

This is what I think you're saying, in simple words:
1) immersion is good and fun
2) rules should act in the service of immersion, describing the physical laws of the game world.
3) Immersion plus player autonomy leads to the game consisting of a series of events that do not follow a set "story".

Is that your argument?

This sounds like what over on The Forge they'd call Simulationist play, and it's almost as old as roleplaying itself. I've heard accounts of this kind of play as far back as the 80s. (I think you might enjoy reading "GNS and other matters of role-playing theory") over on http://www.indie-rpgs.com , as it relates to what you're talking about.)

Roleplaying is a hobby that contains a lot of variety, and that's a good thing. But there hasn't really been a lot of work done in figuring out how the different varieties interrelate. I tend to think that breaking it down between agendas, goals and expectations is more useful than between rulesets. Different rules support different agendas, but very often you'll have one group with one ruleset that contains multiple agendas.

Some people want to wargame. Some want to live in their character's heads. Some want to create a shared story. Those are just simplifications. If you want to advance one of those agendas over the others, that's fine; just realize that it's personal preference, and it's not breaking news.

 

[shilsen]

I agree, but I don't have enough experience with non-D&D RPGs so I'd say that "D&D is mostly a form of story-enacting, not storytelling". Emphasis on and 'mostly', since you may have moments in the game when storytelling occurs, but they are in the minority.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Immersion != roleplaying. Immersion is one way to roleplay, but it's not the one true way.

I don't immerse. But I like to think I roleplay just fine. I don't need to pretend I am my character in order to play his actions as he or she would.

 

[Campbell]

I don't see how 'shifting the roleplaying paradigm' towards simulationist play is supposed to serve to acheive your stated goal of encouraging the growth of the hobby. The immersion or method acting portion of roleplaying games usually takes folks a while to adjust to in IME. Most of the folks I've introduced into the hobby grok either the storytelling or gamist portion of roleplaying games before they grok any sense of immersion.

 

[Quickleaf]

Hey, mythusmage, did you see Joshua's poll about different kinds of players?

The leading reason for playing (last time I checked) was story.
It was followed by kicking arse, ambition, and brilliant planning.

 

[Storyteller01]

Have to disagree. Too many stories have been created where the narrator is describing events as they unfold (Ilium is a good example, at least where Hockenberry is concerned). The same with theater. This is a story told/enacted in such a manner is to involve you in the events as they unfold, not nessecarily to show you what has been.

But this goes back to perception as to what storytelling should be. Myself; it's any method of communication that can immerse a third party in the plot. Helps if it has a moral as well...

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I think the growth of the hobby will be best served by drawing in the 13-20 computer gamer crowd which currently accounts for more spending than movies. That means more ways to kick butt, take names, and tally things on a piece of paper.

That D&D serves to do this while also functioning in many other areas, including storytelling, interactive story-guiding, immersive cult-like worship of Mythusmage, and a useful vehicle for mathematics homework is only the gravy. The real money is in drawing CCG, Minis, and Computer Gamers ... survival of the industry is where the money is, thus logic suggests that survival is ... oh my ... right about where D&D is.

--fje

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I think the growth of the hobby will be best served by drawing in the 13-20 computer gamer crowd which currently accounts for more spending than movies. That means more ways to kick butt, take names, and tally things on a piece of paper.

I'd say that depends on the kind of electronic gamer you're attempting to draw in.

STORY could be every bit as important as POWER to a certain stripe (console RPG gamers).

Immersion still wouldn't be much of an issue, though: they're primarily used to games in which they watch and in some respects control a group of characters in a story rather than 'taking the role of' one character.

 

[FireLance]

Heh. The great thing about drawing in the computer game crowd is that they should be pretty used to cut-scenes where the game controls the character's actions and being railroaded from one fight to the next, so that's one less thing for DMs to worry about.