Close Wounds and Coup-de-Grace

[Jhaelen]

Another interesting idea came up in our last session:
At one point a helpless character (who had his strength reduced to zero) was subject to a coup-de-grace attempt, dealing 26 damage. Normally, the target would thus have to make a Fort save with a DC of 36 to survive.

Now, one player tried to use the Close Wounds spell (an immediate spell from the spell compendium) to reduce the damage, thus lowering the DC.

I ruled that this wasn't possible since taking the damage and making the Fort save happen at the same time. I.e. you cannot use an immediate action to reduce the damage before the save is rolled. Do you agree?

 

[Nebten]

I occur. Of course I don't know if that matters much =v)

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Coincidentally, we had the same situation arise on Saturday, and my DM ruled the opposite way (as would I).

Close wounds has language to the effect that it's as if the damage weren't taken, and if the damage isn't taken, it's not applied to the coup de grace's Fortitude save.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I disagree. Close wounds specifically says it occurs in such a way that it applies before the damage takes effect (you can use it on someone knocked to -15 hp and prevent them from dying if you heal them for 6+).

 

[Shin Okada]

I agree with Jeff Wilder and StreamOfTheSky.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I agree with Jeff Wilder and StreamOfTheSky.

I agree with the eminent Jeff Wilder, Stream of the Sky & Shin Okada. That said, Close Wounds can heal a maximum of 9 hit points, I believe. d4+1 per level, up to 5. So, it would still be a DC:27 Fortitude Save, at best, which is no guarantee unless the PC had an excellent Fort save.

 

[Ahnehnois]

The text does state that the damage effectively doesn't happen, so by the RAW the spell does mitigate or eliminate the fort save.

However, I wouldn't fault the OP for ruling it doesn't work; it's an awfully powerful 2nd-level spell. If it came up in my game, I'd probably rule the same way.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

That said, Close Wounds can heal a maximum of 9 hit points, I believe. d4+1 per level, up to 5. So, it would still be a DC:27 Fortitude Save, at best, which is no guarantee unless the PC had an excellent Fort save.

1d4+9 with Augment Healing, FTW. (In our game on Saturday, the PC actually made the save because of the bonus 4 points from Augment Healing.)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

1d4+9 with Augment Healing, FTW. (In our game on Saturday, the PC actually made the save because of the bonus 4 points from Augment Healing.)

Soul of Light spell from C. Champion lasts for an hour and adds +2 / spell level, so that'd be another +4 healed. There are ways to raise it.

And I don't think the spell is overpowered. It heals very little without extra help, and really it's a blessing IMHO. It's prevented a LOT of hair-line cases of potential PC death in my games, and I'm of the mindset that I don't like PCs dropping like flies.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

However, I wouldn't fault the OP for ruling it doesn't work; it's an awfully powerful 2nd-level spell. If it came up in my game, I'd probably rule the same way.

I also don't fault the OP for going the other way.

I actually think that the weird language about the "damage doesn't actually happen" or whatever is intended to make it clear that the spell can save someone who would otherwise go to -10 and die. For instance, if close wounds negated all of the damage from a poisoned dagger, I would rule that the poison still happened. IMO, there is a wound, it just heals so swiftly under close wounds that it can't kill in and of itself.

What swings me firmly that way on the coup de grace is, frankly, that I don't mind ruling in favor of "not killing PCs." Especially with a death as non-heroic as a coup de grace.

But I don't fault someone who rules the other way, certainly. The spell is not well written.