Clubhouse: The Shearing Pen

[Infiniti2000]

So, what you are saying is that being charmed by someone from your original side has a more powerful effect. In other words, if you charm someone from the opposing team they will only not fight you, but they will still fight any other members from your side. e.g. A is fighting B and charms him. C comes in and fights both A and B and kills A. D comes in (originally on A's side) and now has to fight both C and B.

Basically, if nothing gets rid of the motivation to fight for your side, why would you fight against your side ever?

 

[Gansk]

B would still fight for D's side unless he was charmed by C. In that case, he can't attack C anymore because C is his friend, so that trumps the charm by A because A is no longer there. In the absence of instructions, B was originally brought into the arena to fight against D's side, so D is once again an enemy.

If D then charmed B, B would stay out of the fight because everybody in the arena is his friend.

 

[ugulu]

"And now we go to Wolf Howitzer on location in the Hellish gallery"

<cut to a human with perfect hair, trying to yell over the sound of a mob>

"Thanks Aaron. Things have been simmering for the last few weeks as the board has displayed the increasing spread between the CR of the Hellish gladiators and their opponents. When it reached +9 earlier today, the gladiators became, in the words of one diabolic witness, 'a swarm that would scare even people who shop the day after Thanksgiving'.

We actually have a clip of a fiendishly attractive Erinyes devil who tried to escape her place in the rotation. She was wearing nothing but the flesh she was spawned in, in a total panic, and made a run for the exit. She was picked-up by one of the crowd control golems and thrown back so forcefully that she was embedded up to her waist in the face of a nearby eye tyrant."

<shows a clip of a mob that makes a Rage Against the Machine mosh pit look like an L.A. Clippers fan-club quilting bee, ending with a blur, and refocusing on the legs (and digitally disguised nether-regions) of the devil protruding from the dying eye tyrant>

"Wolf, you don't mean...."

"Yes Aaron, we can honestly say in the midst of all this violence, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Now back to the studio."

 

[Infiniti2000]

So, when the person who charmed you leaves the arena (for whatever reason), you're no longer considered charmed and once again fight for your original side? I thought spell effects remain?

 

[ugulu]

I'd read it as the spell effect being tied to the caster though. While Hold Person has an obvious effect, w/o the person who cast the charm, there is no reason not to go back to business-as-usual. It's not that they're being charmed and take-on the alignment of the caster, just that they become friends with the caster - so if the caster is gone, the motivation is gone.
Exception: if the creature that killed the caster is still in the arena along with the charmed creature, I think the charmed creature could very well fight with that specific creature ("you hurt my friend") as opposed to anyone else that comes along.

 

[PJSlavner]

I agree about the exception. In the case in the Celestia Arena, the exception does not apply because no one harmed Stormongo's friend except for another of Stormongo's friends. Minx fled the arena without being harmed by any parties that Stormongo considers neutral (lower case).

 

[Infiniti2000]

While Hold Person has an obvious effect, w/o the person who cast the charm, there is no reason not to go back to business-as-usual. It's not that they're being charmed and take-on the alignment of the caster, just that they become friends with the caster - so if the caster is gone, the motivation is gone.

I agree in regards to normal charming, but this is a special rule in the BoAA. Normally, by merely charming someone, you couldn't make them fight their allies. You need to give them orders and make an opposed charisma check (which hasn't been required at all, so I assumed it was not necessary). When someone is charmed, they either fight for the other side (and then consider the other side their allies) or they don't. If someone is charmed by both sides, then that someone should regard both sides as his friends and shouldn't attack anyone. There's no such thing as 'default' unless the original charm was dispelled or ended. But while both spells are active, there can't be a measure of 'default'.

 

[Gansk]

Just because you're fighting in an army doesn't mean everybody's your friend, right? Especially this kind of army, where nobody trained together, they just popped in and were given orders.

This is what I said back in May when you asked me if charming was sufficient to have the charmee switch sides. An uncharmed creature doesn't have friends, just opponents. Any other creature fighting with it gives it the opportunity to team up and dispense with the opponent faster, but that doesn't make it an "ally".

Thus the priority of opponents for a given creature is:

1) Creatures who a charmer instructs it to fight who are not also charmers.
2) Creatures who fight for the opposite side of a charmer who are not charmers themselves.
3) Creatures who fight for the opposite side. (default)

 

[Infiniti2000]

Okay, cool. Crystal clear now.

 

[PJSlavner]

I was thinking about draws via burrowing or flying out of reach. I am not a big fan of that, even though I have used the tactic.

The rule should probably not be changed now, but I have a rule change proposal for the next round in the BoAA, after the Neutral vs. (insert alignment here) battles are all complete. My proposal follows.

You may not force a draw by hiding from your opponent through invisibility, or by being out of reach of your opponent, until you have damaged it or have made every effort to damage it, and failed.

The latter would come into play against incorporeal creatures or those that have too great a DR to damage. There might be other circumstances that may apply.

Maybe even in the case of a burrowing creature hiding from a flying creature using ranged attacks, the burrowing creature would have to come up to the surface if the flying creature landed, thus giving the burrowing creature a chance to damage the opponent.

My proposal would most likely enable each creature to have at least one chance to defeat its opponent.

There are probably some kinks to work out, but that is one thing this forum is about.