CoC atmosphere

[Golandrinel]

I have asked this on other boards, so please bear with me if you've heard it before..

Does the d20 CoC system do Lovecraft's work the justice it deserves???

Many people have said that it's the DM who creates the atmosphere and so the system is not an issue, but I disagree, no matter how great the DM the game mechanics will have an effect (maybe very small, but an effect none the less). I'm especially interested in how the system handles insanity.

 

[Assenpfeffer]

I have asked this on other boards, so please bear with me if you've heard it before..

Does the d20 CoC system do Lovecraft's work the justice it deserves???

Many people have said that it's the DM who creates the atmosphere and so the system is not an issue, but I disagree, no matter how great the DM the game mechanics will have an effect (maybe very small, but an effect none the less). I'm especially interested in how the system handles insanity.

First of all, CoC D20's sanity rules are pretty much lifted directly from the original version's: A percentile score which fluctuates in play, capped by 100-Cthulhu Mythos skill. This is almost identical overall to the original game's sanity rules. The differences are pretty much minor and limited to specific sanity loss numbers. This is integrates, not seamlessly, but functionally, into the D20 mechanical framework.

Second, let me say that I like CoC D20 a great deal and consider it a top-notch product which improves in some ways upon the original. It's approach toward the "deities" of the Cthulhu Mythos, for example, is superior to the BRP handling of the subject, IMO. However, there are some issues with it.

You're really asking two different questions here and implying a third; one about CoCd20's handling of Lovecraft and another about atmosphere.

To the former, yes; I think CoC does do justice to Lovecraft. It handles the subject maturely and with great respect, the rules function well, and the whole package is unquestionably well put together. However, if you ask your implied question "How well does CoC d20 model Lovecraft?" I'd have to say that it does a good job, but not as good a job as the original, classic BRP CoC.

This is a function of the d20 system and has little to do with the designers' application of it. Lovecraft's humanity is fragile and insignificant on the cosmic scale of things - BRP CoC reflects that well. D20 has a good deal more room for PC heroics. PCs in D20 have considerably higher survivability than they do in BRP.

Note that this isn't entirely negative - D20 CoC would be fabulous at handling a horror game like Buffy or All Flesh Must be Eaten, as I've pointed out before. And I don't think there's any question that D20 is better suited to long-term, open-ended campaigns than BRP is. This is an issue with BRP CoC. It's not a weakness, per se, but a feature of the system. BRP CoC is better suited to one-shots and tight, single storyline-based campaigns than just about any other RPG, and some of the campaigns (Beyond the Mountains of Madness, Complete Masks of Nyarlathotep and Horror on the Orient Express, to name a few,) can take many, many months of real time to play through.

The other issue with D20 as it applies to CoC is the level system - as written, it makes many of the most common CoC character archetypes difficult, if not flat-out impossible to make. The middle-aged expert in achaeology and ancient languages is an example - it's simply not possible to make him as a 1st level PC. In BRP you can allocate skill points freely and make your "expert" an actual expert instead of a first-level yahoo.

As I've pointed out before, there's a fairly easy fix for this. Pick an arbitrary PC level (4th-7th is appropriate, I think,) generate the starting PCs there, and occasionally give out extra skill ranks instead of standard experience. This raises its own issues, though - among them the fact that 4th-7th level D20 PCs can be pretty formidable against the kind of Mythos foes they might be expected to face.

Note of this should be taken to say that it's not possible to run a good, true-to-Lovecraft game using D20. It certainly is, but there are roadblocks that don't exist, I think, in the original BRP version of the game.

Now, to attack your question about atmosphere. I agree that the rules certainly have an effect. Specifically, in this case, for the reasons described above. Rules that better model the intended atmosphere are always going to be preferable to those that don't do so quite as well.

The key thing that has to be remembered here is that in horror RPGs generally and in Call of Cthulhu specifically, atmosphere is critical. Without it, the game is about the GM killing PCs and driving them insane. A D&D game can get by with minimal atmosphere, since PCs are heroic in stature and can better control game situations. They drive the action. In CoC the Mythos drives the session, and if players don't have other reasons to remain emotionally involved, they'll very quickly shut themselves away from the game. In D&D amosphere is a nice bonus, in CoC it's essential to the success of your session.

Bearing that in mind, it becomes important to understand that the rules alone cannot supply atmosphere. They can help, or hinder, but they can never be relied upon to do it entirely by themselves. So it's the GM's burden, and the GM's responsibility if the game collapses beacuse the players get bored.

Lots of people feel that this makes atmosphere-dependent games like CoC difficult to run. I tend to agree, but any moderately-competent GM can learn the tricks neccessary to do it. I'm no GMing superstar by any streach of the imagination, but in my last CoC session (a one-shot last weekend) I had two people, separated from the rest of the party and the rest of the players, about crap their pants, the tension was so thick. By Deep Ones, one of the puniest and least frightening Mythos critters

 

[Golandrinel]

Thanks for a comprehensive answer there Assenpfeffer.

ANd yes , I mean't would the game rule be beneficial or detrimental to the atmosphere of the game.

 

[Assenpfeffer]

ANd yes , I mean't would the game rule be beneficial or detrimental to the atmosphere of the game.

So, should I take it that I answered your question satisfactorily? Be warned, if not, you may have to endure more hot air from me.

 

[haiiro]

ANd yes , I mean't would the game rule be beneficial or detrimental to the atmosphere of the game.

Depends what kind of game you want to run. BRP CoC is better for running games modelled after Lovecraft's stories -- fragile, ordinary heroes confronting the Mythos. It's also versatile enough to work for other kinds of game as well -- like the more heroic, otherworldly Dreamlands stories (Randolph Carter, etc.).

d20 CoC is better for slightly more heroic games. The investigators will be much more combat-capable, and won't be able to start the game as experts in anything (unlike BRP CoC, which is much more skill-focused). To my mind, the d20 version would be better for running a CoC game based on The Mummy movies, or a darker version of Indiana Jones.

Some of the rules in the d20 version are spot-on for any CoC game, though -- particularly the rules for psychic powers (which are superlative), and the sanity system (which Assenpfeffer pointed out is the same one used in BRP CoC).

 

[Olive]

d20 CoC is better for slightly more heroic games. The investigators will be much more combat-capable, and won't be able to start the game as experts in anything (unlike BRP CoC, which is much more skill-focused).

In what way are they more combat capable?

 

[Balbinus]

At low levels they're distinctly not more combat capable.

I own both original CoC and d20. The main issue with the d20 one is that the tone of the game changes as characters increase in levels.

Level 1-3 or so characters are significantly weaker than beginning BRP characters. They are not more combat capable, if you don't devote feats to weapons in fact they are distinctly less combat capable. At this level of play d20 is a lot deadlier than original CoC.

Levels 4-8 or so are similar to BRP. Above that you start to get a pulp feel. Note, these are rough approximations, guesstimates. But by the time you reach the midlevels your game has a pulpier tone.

High level d20 CoC characters are action movie heroes, although the massive damage rule still makes them more cautious than their equivalents in most d20 games.

And that's the biggest issue really. Your game potentially changes from ultra-gritty horror, to straight horror, to pulp action, to action movie adventure. All simply because the characters change level.

In practice though advancement's not so important in CoC and even a 20th level investigator gets his ass handed to him by anything serious. So overall it should still work out.

It's a good game. I'd check out the truly excellent site http://www.mearls.com/cthulhu/ Mike Mearls did this to showcase some of his d20 design work and I wouldn't run a CoC d20 game without it. In particular, his character templates get round the problem that as written the game makes soldiers very hard to create, quite simply you need too many feats to make a credible soldier.

But low level d20 CoC characters are plenty fragile, maybe even too fragile.

And I agree about the Psychic Feat rules, truly excellent stuff.

 

[haiiro]

In what way are they more combat capable?

Because all PCs receive iterative attacks and steadily-increasing BABs, as well as more HPs at every level, regardless of profession or other choices. Couple this with feats -- 50% of which are directly combat-related -- and I think the average d20 investigator will be more combat capable than the average BRP investigator.

 

[Praeco]

And that's the biggest issue really. Your game potentially changes from ultra-gritty horror, to straight horror, to pulp action, to action movie adventure. All simply because the characters change level.

I'm more of a fan of the BRP version due to this issue.
To alleviate this, I've considered starting characters at 3rd level, and capping Hit Points at 3d6 + Con (averages to about 13-18 HP). Level increases won't affect this. Since there are no differences due to classes in Hit point progression between characters, there aren't really any balancing issues between the character types tro worry about.

Additionally I considered increasing the skill rank cap to level +6 or so, that way a lower-level character can have a decent skill rank, and better emulate an expert in their field without having all the combat bonuses.

I think CoC is free-form enough to allow for even further tweaking, possibly even allowing skill ranks to advance similarly to BRP where use of the skill allows increase. Since XP is not directly linked to Challenge Ratings, I don't see why the leveling up scheme can't be modified to allow a more organic evolution.


Of course, seeing as my CoC group combusted just after character creatioon, I haven't tested this out yet.

 

[Geoffrey]

While both BRP and d20 CoC are fun games, I don't think either really reflects Lovecraft's work very well. De Profundis does a much better job of that.