Code Monkey Lose WoTC License (Merged)

[karianna]

They don't, for stuff that's for personal use only (as in, "you made the files yourself, and you're using them.") But PCGen's project did originally continue under a similar assumption, and found out that WotC felt otherwise. However, it never came to a litigious head, instead resolving in the software contract they've had the past few years now.

Exactly, PCGen (The open source project) got a cease and desist from WoTC. So Mynex, Lonejedi and Bryan McRoberts negotiated with WoTC and subsequently split from PCGen and formed CMP, it was the only way they could get WoTC closed content data to the PCGen userbase.

We (the PCGen project) have happily continued building the OGL SRD data sets as well has hundreds more from other publishers that we have permission for.

PCGen (or more to the point Bryan who owns the PCGen name) pretty much had no choice but to C&D, we certainly did not want to get lawyers involved (Bryan would have had to fend them off by himself as well, not a pleasant thought) and given current IP laws WoTC were within their rights (whether or not you believe that is fair is neither here or there).

 

[daan]

OK, we've talked with our OGL/PI gurus and although we don't want to put up roadblocks for third parties like yourselves, there are some OGL/PI issues that we need to make you aware of before conversion (for example, datasets that we created for particular publishers couldn't be converted unless you had specific permission from them as well, and there's also the matter of PCGen IP, which is something that some of our team feel strongly about). Drop Paul King (you've seen him on these boards) a line and hopefully we can clear it all up quickly so you can get on with it!

I think the point is the users download datasets and convert them, with Vascant just supplies a indiscriminate lst importer (like importing a word document in openoffice indiscriminately). In the end the user is responsible how the importer is used. or am I mistaken?

 

[daan]

PCGen (or more to the point Bryan who owns the PCGen name) pretty much had no choice but to C&D, we certainly did not want to get lawyers involved (Bryan would have had to fend them off by himself as well, not a pleasant thought) and given current IP laws WoTC were within their rights (whether or not you believe that is fair is neither here or there).

Was this WoTC or TSR? Rhyming this with the respect Kingpaul is talking about sounds a lot like respect for someone who would ruin you if you wouldn't, versus respecting someone's hard work.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Was this WoTC or TSR? Rhyming this with the respect Kingpaul is talking about sounds a lot like respect for someone who would ruin you if you wouldn't, versus respecting someone's hard work.

I'm sure WoTC would regard as someone's hard work spent built off WoTC IP. How hard the work is has no bearing on the legality of the work. I think the IP discussion is really kind of not germane to the issue of CMP losing the license, and everyone's positions here are pretty clear and unlikely to change.

 

[karianna]

I think the point is the users download datasets and convert them, with Vascant just supplies a indiscriminate lst importer (like importing a word document in openoffice indiscriminately). In the end the user is responsible how the importer is used. or am I mistaken?

I'm not sure as IANAL (we've got our OGL/IP gurus looking further into this), I only know that:

1.) Publishers may get upset that PCGen datasets are getting converted to another program, we had to get a host of specific permissions to allow PCGen to create certain datasets. I'm pretty sure that any other other 3rd party who has similar software (or yes even one who supplies a converter to that software) would need the same permissions to create 'datasets'.

So I guess technically PCGen doesn't need to get involved here, it's a matter between the 3rd party and the individual Publishers. But we feel that we should at least inform 3rd parties of the permission gathering that we had to go through with Publishers. Who knows we might even be able to assist in helping other 3rd parties get those permssions (we've got the contacts after all ;p)!

2.) We _think_ (and we're investigating this) that the datasets the PCGen team have created are PCGen's IP. Now _if_ it is our IP then the team needs to decide who we allow to convert the data, I don't really see us blocking anyone but you are talking about a team of ~50 over 5-6 years producing hordes of data, so you can understand that there might be some grumblings about a rival software product benefiting off the back of their hard labour.

Now as the Chair Monkey I have asked the OGL/PI team to look into points 1 and 2 and I've also polled our entire team about point 2, the debate is raging at the moment .

PCGen has always had a history of trying to help other 3rd parties, so I think the team will end up voting to assist 3rd parties with point 1 (for the sake of relations between publishers and the software industry) and will simply only ask that we get mundo kudos for point 2 .

I'll post up the results of our findings on this board and the digital D&D board on WoTC

 

[karianna]

Was this WoTC or TSR? Rhyming this with the respect Kingpaul is talking about sounds a lot like respect for someone who would ruin you if you wouldn't, versus respecting someone's hard work.

WoTC

 

[kingpaul]

They don't, for stuff that's for personal use only (as in, "you made the files yourself, and you're using them.") But PCGen's project did originally continue under a similar assumption, and found out that WotC felt otherwise. However, it never came to a litigious head, instead resolving in the software contract they've had the past few years now.

Just a point of clarification, CMP had the license, PCGen did not. When PCGen initially sat down with WotC at GenCon '02, PCGen was hoping to get the license, but it was given to CMP instead.

 

[DMFTodd]

>> Publishers may get upset that PCGen datasets are getting converted to another program,

PCGen has made the argument multiple times that "including your data in our character generator helps your sales". But now, suddenly, including that data in more than your character generator would upset them? ::scratches head::

Too bad for them. They released the data. It's out there. They can't control what people do with it other than distributing it.

>> we had to get a host of specific permissions to allow PCGen to create certain datasets

You had to get specific permission to DISTRIBUTE that data. You don't need permission to support Feat X from Company Y in PCGen as long as you're not distributing their stuff.

>> Now _if_ it is our IP then the team needs to decide who we allow to convert the data

No, sorry. If you're distributing the data to me, then I get to decide how I want to use it for my personal use. You don't get to decide how I use it.

>> so you can understand that there might be some grumblings about a rival software product benefiting off the back of their hard labour

Yes, perfectly understandable but it's unfortunately a perfectly legal thing for someone to do. They can't distribute your IP, but they can certainly write software that uses it and then leave it to the users to decide what to do with it.

 

[Vascant]

I think the point is the users download datasets and convert them, with Vascant just supplies a indiscriminate lst importer (like importing a word document in openoffice indiscriminately). In the end the user is responsible how the importer is used. or am I mistaken?

Yes Daan, you are correct.

Let me make some points pretty clear, I am not a lawyer but I do have one and this has been researched before I even wasted a moment coding it.

1. According to WotC I am free to use the SRD provided I follow their license. So if Party A changes the format of the SRD they do not gain rights over that document because it is still owned by the original owner (WotC).

2. Converters are not illegal and the program itself was designed for a legal purpose.

3. I do have to make sure that I list PCGen as the source of the SRD I used in the OGL presented with Evolution.

 

[Vascant]

Also like to add one thing..

All of this data people are speaking about is not owned by any of the software applications in the current discussion (CMP, PCGen, Redblade or Evolution). We do not have the right to enforce or police the copyright of others. This is why you will not find me emailing PCGen about data that they merely have permission to use, if I wish to include it in Evolution then I need to get in contact with that copyright holder and ask them for permission.

Example: NPC Designer has a dataset for E.N. Publishing's Bloodlines and Paragons. I do not have the right to tell people how to use it or if it can be used. The only permission I have is to make available for NPC Designer users. I have no right to tell people how it can be used.