Code Monkey Lose WoTC License (Merged)

[Aaron L]

this nightmare is exactly why i dont even touch electronic gaming aids. im not going to waste any money on something that doesnt support WotC books, and all the free programs ive seen have been horrifyigly convoluted to use.

 

[kingpaul]

this nightmare is exactly why i dont even touch electronic gaming aids. im not going to waste any money on something that doesnt support WotC books

For almost 4 years now (if I'm recalling the time frame correctly), CMP has had the license, from WotC, to support their books in electronic format. So, I'm a bit confused on your statement about "support WotC books".

 

[3catcircus]

If someone can...

I don't care who publishes electronic D&D tools (even the PCGen and CMP folks) so long as it does the following:

1. Contains all WotC datasets (core, FR, Eberron, etc.), including the ability to download new datasets as new books become available.
2. Accurate calculations.
3. Ability to quickly and easily enter new data or modify existing data to suit my campaign through the use of a GUI that mimics the data as it appears in the book and then the program parses both the data and the mechanics.
4. No need to purchase each additional dataset at an additional price. Whether it is a $5/year subscription or a $xxx lifetime license, I don't want to continually pay for each dataset when I already have bought the books.

So far, no tool does all of these things.

I'm soured on PCGen because of the removal of the non-OGL datasets early on and I also don't like the fact that it runs slower than molasses in January.

NPC Designer works great for what I use it for (rapid generation of non-monster mook NPCs) - I haven't dared to try and modify the dataset.

DMGenie is, so far, the best product for me - (relatively) easy to add or modify things and pretty accurate calculations. The only thing slowing me down is the need to script things.

Hopefully, the fact that CMP lost the license will open things up to other publishers - either open-source or proprietary.

 

[kingpaul]

I'm soured on PCGen because of the removal of the non-OGL datasets early on and I also don't like the fact that it runs slower than molasses in January.

Do you still find PCGen runs that slow? The code team has spent the past months (maybe even going on a year now) cutting out redundant code to try and speed it up.

4. No need to purchase each additional dataset at an additional price. Whether it is a $5/year subscription or a $xxx lifetime license, I don't want to continually pay for each dataset when I already have bought the books.

You're paying for someone else to enter that data in for you. It comes down to how much you value your time. Also, the dataset is not the book and vice versa. If you buy a book, you don't get to see the movie the book's based off for free.

 

[3catcircus]

Do you still find PCGen runs that slow? The code team has spent the past months (maybe even going on a year now) cutting out redundant code to try and speed it up.

Yep - I just find java-based stuff to be way too slow.

You're paying for someone else to enter that data in for you. It comes down to how much you value your time. Also, the dataset is not the book and vice versa. If you buy a book, you don't get to see the movie the book's based off for free.

There is a world of difference between book/movie and book/dataset.

With the book/movie situation, I'm paying to see a director's/screenwriter's/producer's/actor's *interpretation* of a book - i.e. the performance is art just as much as the book is.

With the book/dataset situation, I am *space-shifting* the data - I am not paying to see someone's *interpretation* of the data - I expect the data to be unchanged.

A better analogy is the CD/MP3 example - I've bought the CD, I've bought the MP3 player and software. I shouldn't have to pay the CD distributor when I want to make an MP3 of my CD.

 

[Ranger REG]

I don't care who publishes electronic D&D tools (even the PCGen and CMP folks) so long as it does the following:

1. Contains all WotC datasets (core, FR, Eberron, etc.), including the ability to download new datasets as new books become available.

In a perfect world, where you don't have to pay for things like cable and internet, or there is more than enough PS3 to go around without killing each other for it.

This is not a perfect world, however, so expect only the core rules to be included. The rest will be available as expansion.

2. Accurate calculations.

That's going to be hard, because some same-type bonuses and penalties may stack due to "otherwise noted" clauses.

3. Ability to quickly and easily enter new data or modify existing data to suit my campaign through the use of a GUI that mimics the data as it appears in the book and then the program parses both the data and the mechanics.

A long way from that one, unless you know the assigned variables.

4. No need to purchase each additional dataset at an additional price. Whether it is a $5/year subscription or a $xxx lifetime license, I don't want to continually pay for each dataset when I already have bought the books.

Perhaps, but as long as WotC continues to print new material, users will want new material incorporated into the program.

Also, why would I want Eberron-specific material in my program? It's only going to waste some space on my hard drive. And I don't want worthless data on my hard drive.

 

[mosat]

There is a world of difference between book/movie and book/dataset.

With the book/movie situation, I'm paying to see a director's/screenwriter's/producer's/actor's *interpretation* of a book - i.e. the performance is art just as much as the book is.

With the book/dataset situation, I am *space-shifting* the data - I am not paying to see someone's *interpretation* of the data - I expect the data to be unchanged.

A better analogy is the CD/MP3 example - I've bought the CD, I've bought the MP3 player and software. I shouldn't have to pay the CD distributor when I want to make an MP3 of my CD.

You have obviously not done any dataset coding for PCGen, It is not simply a matter of copy/paste. Yes the text itself should remain unchanged but then consider that PCGen is a tool for manipulating the data and mechanics and then displaying the results, there is a good deal of creativity involved in creating the datasets and there are a variety of different ways it can be coded. PCGen and CMP have separately coded some of the same material (the SRD) and there are creative divergencies in how it is done.

It is also a great deal of work. I am wrapping up work on a dataset for Spycraft 2 for PCGen, it has taken hundreds of hours over the last year and a half and I was fortunate to have been supplied with digital copies of the book from the publisher. I know what it takes to create this work and it really is analogous to turning a book into a movie. Well maybe not a movie, but at least a screenplay.

Also your CD/MP3 analogy is flawed, you don't have to pay anyone when you make an MP3 from a CD you own and you don't have to pay anyone to make datasets from books you own, you are free to type them in yourself and no one here is saying otherwise. However if you put that MP3 online for others to download you break the law, same with datasets of non-OGL data.

 

[kigmatzomat]

With the book/dataset situation, I am *space-shifting* the data - I am not paying to see someone's *interpretation* of the data - I expect the data to be unchanged.

You DO expect the data to be changed, or you are thinking the software is an AI that can comprehend the written word. So think of the RPG software datasets as a translation from English to Computerish. When you buy an english language book, you don't automatically get the PDF of the French translation. Heck, you don't get the PDF of the english language book from WotC.

A better analogy is the CD/MP3 example - I've bought the CD, I've bought the MP3 player and software. I shouldn't have to pay the CD distributor when I want to make an MP3 of my CD.

Ahh, another flawed analogy. Once upon a time, you would have paid for MP3 authoring software. Now that software is "free" (ad-ware, bundled with the OS or MP3 player hardware, etc) b/c there were other business models to support it.

So you don't like the iTunes-type of business model, which one do you like? How about the one where you buy conversion software, how much are you willing to pay for a program that will OCR the books, read the rules, comprehend the rules, and then translate it into Cumputerish? 'Cause it is not going to be cheap.

What you are really after is bundling the data with the hardcopy, something you should be complaining to WotC, not PCGen or CMP. The problem is that it will raise the cost of your books. RPG software is still something of a niche market within a niche market. Even when the 3.0 PHB came with the D&D software, most people didn't use it. Would it be worth the ~$2 increase on all the books to include a CD (guesttimated cost of the disc, the glued-to-the-cover-holder, and the data conversion), especially when RPG software data files MAY cause a decrease in book demand?

That's a hard sell to the WHasbrotC board of directors who are probably still twitching at the notion of the OGL. But hey, if you can make it happen I will be a happy camper myself, assuming I can use the data in PCGen where my unique campaign materials exist.

 

[buzz]

Do you still find PCGen runs that slow? The code team has spent the past months (maybe even going on a year now) cutting out redundant code to try and speed it up.

PCgen is way, way more responsive than it was in past versions. However, even on my Dual G5 PowerMac, I notice that it can be somewhat poky. The other Java-based chargen app I use regularly, Hero Designer for HERO System, feels as responsive as any native application. Granted, it may work very differently from PCGen.

Offered as a data point, not a criticism. I have way more success with PCGen than my buddies do with eTools. (I've heard good things about RPGXplorer, DMGenie, and NPCDesigner, but as Windows-only apps, they are of no use to me until a time comes when I replace my current Mac with an Intel-based one.)

 

[3catcircus]

You have obviously not done any dataset coding for PCGen, It is not simply a matter of copy/paste. Yes the text itself should remain unchanged but then consider that PCGen is a tool for manipulating the data and mechanics and then displaying the results, there is a good deal of creativity involved in creating the datasets and there are a variety of different ways it can be coded. PCGen and CMP have separately coded some of the same material (the SRD) and there are creative divergencies in how it is done.

It is also a great deal of work. I am wrapping up work on a dataset for Spycraft 2 for PCGen, it has taken hundreds of hours over the last year and a half and I was fortunate to have been supplied with digital copies of the book from the publisher. I know what it takes to create this work and it really is analogous to turning a book into a movie. Well maybe not a movie, but at least a screenplay.

Also your CD/MP3 analogy is flawed, you don't have to pay anyone when you make an MP3 from a CD you own and you don't have to pay anyone to make datasets from books you own, you are free to type them in yourself and no one here is saying otherwise. However if you put that MP3 online for others to download you break the law, same with datasets of non-OGL data.

I'm assuming you mean "data-entry of .lst files" when referring to "dataset coding," no? If so, yes - I have entered or modified data in the .lst files - I realize the difficulty with entering data and how time-consuming it is, but, sorry, I don't buy that it is creative to enter data because there are multiple ways of entering it.

As to whether putting an MP3 online is breaking the law - we really have to distinguish criminal from civil and understand that it is no different than giving someone a cassette tape of a song from an album you bought - the method of distribution and the storage media are just different, the lawyers be damned. Now, if I were to *sell* cassette tapes, thats a whole different ball game.