Code Monkey Lose WoTC License (Merged)

[3catcircus]

You DO expect the data to be changed, or you are thinking the software is an AI that can comprehend the written word. So think of the RPG software datasets as a translation from English to Computerish. When you buy an english language book, you don't automatically get the PDF of the French translation. Heck, you don't get the PDF of the english language book from WotC.

Actually, I *don't* expect the data to be changed. The phrase "Hit Die: d8" or "Spells per Day" means the same thing to me whether I read it on paper or on a monitor. By all means, a parser can be considered intellectual property, but the .lst files *aren't*, by themselves, the parser.

Ahh, another flawed analogy. Once upon a time, you would have paid for MP3 authoring software. Now that software is "free" (ad-ware, bundled with the OS or MP3 player hardware, etc) b/c there were other business models to support it.

So you don't like the iTunes-type of business model, which one do you like? How about the one where you buy conversion software, how much are you willing to pay for a program that will OCR the books, read the rules, comprehend the rules, and then translate it into Cumputerish? 'Cause it is not going to be cheap.

Actually, I currently scan my books (takes about a week) and OCR them into text files. I then cut-n-paste into DMGenie (takes a few hours) and then spend days or weeks making the scripts work. I've *bought* the books. I've *bought* the scanner and software. I've *bought* DMGenie. I've *already* invested money in the scanner and OCR software, I'm just using them. I invested money in DMGenie because it works well, is easy to use, runs smoothly, has great developer support, and a thriving community. I'm buying the books that interest me - a few extra dollars for access to the data in multiple formats (PCGen, DMGenie, others) would be a big selling point.

What you are really after is bundling the data with the hardcopy, something you should be complaining to WotC, not PCGen or CMP. The problem is that it will raise the cost of your books. RPG software is still something of a niche market within a niche market. Even when the 3.0 PHB came with the D&D software, most people didn't use it. Would it be worth the ~$2 increase on all the books to include a CD (guesttimated cost of the disc, the glued-to-the-cover-holder, and the data conversion), especially when RPG software data files MAY cause a decrease in book demand?

That's a hard sell to the WHasbrotC board of directors who are probably still twitching at the notion of the OGL. But hey, if you can make it happen I will be a happy camper myself, assuming I can use the data in PCGen where my unique campaign materials exist.

I'm complaining about PCGen and CMP *because* they have had (until recently) a monopoly on the data in the software arena. No other RPG software publisher was able to officially create datasets, even though their products may be better than E-tools or PCGen. Now that CMP no longer has a license, we'll see what happens.

RPG software data files *won't* cause a decrease in book demand - regardless of what Hasbro's beancounters may think, regardless of whatever flawed surveys or polls they used, people still want paper when it comes to quickly and easily referencing something at the game table. Frankly, I'd be willing to spend a few extra bucks for the data.

In fact, I'd argue that electronic data will sell *more* books. What is the toughest job in 3.x D&D? Creating NPCs (other than straight-from-the-book monsters). Usually, the BBEG is a high-level human(oid) NPC - something that takes forever to do by hand. What is the 2nd toughest job in 3.x D&D? Running combat. All those feats and abilities. Keeping track of multiple modifiers that may occur due to combat actions.

Who is responsible for those two jobs? The DM. Why is Hasbro pushing D&D so hard right now? Because sales are flat. Why are sales flat? Because everyone wants to play and no one wants to DM - hence - no games - no new sales. What makes the job of DMing a hell of a lot easier? Electronic aids. What makes a DM more likely to use a particular electronic aid? Ease of use and rapid access to new data, for very little cost beyond the initial investment.

Why do cable and satellite TV do so well? Lots of data at a cheap price. Beyond the initial investment of either buying the satellite receiver or paying the deposit on the cable box, the monthly bill is relatively cheap - cheap than renting all of the movies and shows each month at the video rental store. Why is Tivo killing advertising? Because it is relatively cheap to subscribe but does exactly what the user wants - shifting the data into a format he wants to use.

*That* is what an electronic RPG aid needs - some initial costs, but the option of either a very inexpensive subscription or a more expensive lifetime subscription.

 

[3catcircus]

In a perfect world, where you don't have to pay for things like cable and internet, or there is more than enough PS3 to go around without killing each other for it.

You can keep the PS3 - anybody willing to stand in a line in the cold without the guarantee of getting what they came for is a fool. I don't care how much they can sell it for on ebay, they are still a fool.


(snip)

Also, why would I want Eberron-specific material in my program? It's only going to waste some space on my hard drive. And I don't want worthless data on my hard drive.

Who said you'd *have* to have Eberron stuff? In a perfect world, the books would come with a CD or a password for website access to download datasets for whichever electronic tool had the license to provide them, with a portion of the sales price of the book going to the electronic tool publisher. Provide a trial version of the tool and *sell* the full version of said electronic tool, and provide the datasets for little to no cost.

Some who are using the trial version are likely to download the datasets - especially if the cost of the datasets is buried in an additional $1-$2 for the book. *Use* of the electronic version (if it is a good tool) will lead to sales of the full version of the tool.

There *are* ways to sell software without it being pirated - make a quality product that is easy to use and is priced right and (most) people won't bother to try and pirate it.

There is a reason why people paid for Wolfenstein 3d when it was introduced, yet would (as still do) pirate Adobe Acrobat (full version) and Photoshop - it is called cost-benefit analysis.

Likewise, there is a reason why overall tax revenues *go up* when the tax rate is low - it isn't worth the trouble for people to spend the effort trying to hide their money in various tax shelters.

 

[buzz]

Why is Hasbro pushing D&D so hard right now? Because sales are flat. Why are sales flat? Because everyone wants to play and no one wants to DM - hence - no games - no new sales.

Source?

 

[Ranger REG]

You can keep the PS3 - anybody willing to stand in a line in the cold without the guarantee of getting what they came for is a fool. I don't care how much they can sell it for on ebay, they are still a fool.

Now what makes you think I'm a console fan? I assure you, for as long as I love PC, I'm not THAT much of a fool.

Who said you'd *have* to have Eberron stuff?

Isn't that what you want in a program? To have everything?

In a perfect world, the books would come with a CD or a password for website access to download datasets for whichever electronic tool had the license to provide them, with a portion of the sales price of the book going to the electronic tool publisher. Provide a trial version of the tool and *sell* the full version of said electronic tool, and provide the datasets for little to no cost.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be Kazaa, or a place for fools that spent money on electronic document and offer said document to everyone for free (be it through Kazaa or newsgroups).

In a perfect world, there would be honorable people in a society that has no crime.

There *are* ways to sell software without it being pirated - make a quality product that is easy to use and is priced right and (most) people won't bother to try and pirate it.

Riiiight. We're talking about the human civilization, aren't we?

Granted, there are a few deviants but they do come from the same stock as you and I.

 

[DonTadow]

You can keep the PS3 - anybody willing to stand in a line in the cold without the guarantee of getting what they came for is a fool. I don't care how much they can sell it for on ebay, they are still a fool.


.

Or they just really want something? or they are really into making money. That's a silly statement to make. YOu probably work 8 hours a day to bring home 100 or 200 bucks. The person who waited in those lines and turned over those ps3s for 2700 made nearly 30 times what you made. When you think about it like that, now whose the fool?

Shoot, if I knew they were going that high I"d have taken some vacation time and stood in line myself.

 

[mosat]

I'm assuming you mean "data-entry of .lst files" when referring to "dataset coding," no? If so, yes - I have entered or modified data in the .lst files - I realize the difficulty with entering data and how time-consuming it is, but, sorry, I don't buy that it is creative to enter data because there are multiple ways of entering it.

The you have a narrow definition of creativity. Granted it is not the same kind of subjective artistic interpritive creativity used in writing a screenplay based on a book, programming involves the logical problem solving sort of creativity, but it is creative none the less.

As to whether putting an MP3 online is breaking the law - we really have to distinguish criminal from civil and understand that it is no different than giving someone a cassette tape of a song from an album you bought - the method of distribution and the storage media are just different, the lawyers be damned. Now, if I were to *sell* cassette tapes, thats a whole different ball game.

OK so you believe that it's legal provided you don't charge? If you put it on a cassette and give it away it still isn't legal.

 

[Mercule]

There is a world of difference between book/movie and book/dataset.

With the book/movie situation, I'm paying to see a director's/screenwriter's/producer's/actor's *interpretation* of a book - i.e. the performance is art just as much as the book is.

With the book/dataset situation, I am *space-shifting* the data - I am not paying to see someone's *interpretation* of the data - I expect the data to be unchanged.

A better analogy is the CD/MP3 example - I've bought the CD, I've bought the MP3 player and software. I shouldn't have to pay the CD distributor when I want to make an MP3 of my CD.

Dude, let us know when you move into this universe.

Disclaimer: I'm in no way, shape, or form associated with PCGen, CMP, or any other gaming tool provider. My attitude should not reflect upon them.

 

[3catcircus]

Or they just really want something? or they are really into making money. That's a silly statement to make. YOu probably work 8 hours a day to bring home 100 or 200 bucks. The person who waited in those lines and turned over those ps3s for 2700 made nearly 30 times what you made. When you think about it like that, now whose the fool?

Shoot, if I knew they were going that high I"d have taken some vacation time and stood in line myself.

"...they just really want something?" How about that instant gratification... Maybe if people weren't able to buy-buy-buy, now-now-now, the world would be a better place.

"...really into making money." Hmm - you can make a hell of a lot more money in a multitude of other ways.

As to my workday and pay, lets just say I am salaried and could afford to buy a PS3 on ebay if I wanted to and leave it at that. My time is too valuable to spend sitting in a line with a bunch of degenerates waiting to maybe, possibly, or not, depending upon where in the line I am, to buy a game. Its a game. It isn't a bunch of gold bricks. It isn't the cure for cancer. It is a game.

 

[3catcircus]

The you have a narrow definition of creativity. Granted it is not the same kind of subjective artistic interpritive creativity used in writing a screenplay based on a book, programming involves the logical problem solving sort of creativity, but it is creative none the less.

In the context I am using, "creating" and "creativity" aren't the same thing. Creativity results from originality of thought or expression. Creating is causing to come into being. Entering data into .lst files is "creating" something but it certainly is not creative since the information already exists. That is all I am saying.

OK so you believe that it's legal provided you don't charge? If you put it on a cassette and give it away it still isn't legal.

It happens all the time, regardless of legality. How many kids from the 70s and 80s do you think actually bought albums or cassettes without first listening to a copy from a friend?

As to legality - there is the practical aspect of the RIAA being unable to go after those who make a copy on cassette tape or CD and give it to a friend. The only reason they are able to go after those who put it out on a filesharing site is because there are IP addresses available. Trust me, if the RIAA could charge you $1 every time you heard something on the radio, they would. And the worst part is that they are a criminal organization - convicted of racketeering to fix prices. If they were not in the pockets of congressmen and judges, they shouldn't even be allowed to exist.

 

[3catcircus]

Dude, let us know when you move into this universe.

Disclaimer: I'm in no way, shape, or form associated with PCGen, CMP, or any other gaming tool provider. My attitude should not reflect upon them.

I gather that you don't agree with me...

If you have an argument to disprove my position, please do so. If you just wanna take cheap shots, do it somewhere else.