Code Monkey Lose WoTC License (Merged)

[kingpaul]

I too was burnt by the suddenly continuous-changing format of PCgen .lsts files

Continuously changing? Granted, new tags are introduced, but the old ones are deprecated before outright removal so folks can move forward. When was the last time you used PCGen that you experienced this?

 

[kingpaul]

Why were PCGen's data files not XML to begin with, BTW? I was always curious why they went with the tab-delimited (?) text files. Seems like Java's XML handling classes would have been easier than what I assume is a lot of string-manipulation with the current .lst format.

I'm not Bryan, but most likely it was because pcgen started as his 'learn java by writing something cool' project back in 2001. He probably didn't want to add in yet another techology.

I'm also not Bryan, but I think Jonas hit the nail on the head.

 

[buzz]

I'm also not Bryan, but I think Jonas hit the nail on the head.

Is a switch to XML forthcoming? I could swear I remember that being an initiative for the 5.6 release some time ago. Or is there no point at this point?

 

[kingpaul]

Is a switch to XML forthcoming? I could swear I remember that being an initiative for the 5.6 release some time ago. Or is there no point at this point?

Its been bantered about several times. However, from what the code and data team has said, IIRC, it would take pretty much a complete overhaul of the code to move from *.lst to XML.

 

[karianna]

Its been bantered about several times. However, from what the code and data team has said, IIRC, it would take pretty much a complete overhaul of the code to move from *.lst to XML.

Yep, can't even be looked at until version 6.0 is done, ya see the problem is that LST isn't just a 'data' language, it's a programming language in its own right .

 

[kigmatzomat]

Actually, I *don't* expect the data to be changed. The phrase "Hit Die: d8" or "Spells per Day" means the same thing to me whether I read it on paper or on a monitor. By all means, a parser can be considered intellectual property, but the .lst files *aren't*, by themselves, the parser.

"Hit Die:d8" is pretty simple. Something like "may use Reflex Save in place of Fort Save as long as they are wearing Light or no armor" is a bit more complex and pretty much require pre-parsing the data by hand or an english-language parser. If you value your time at $7.50/hour, you are probably spending the equivalent of $40/book on your manual approach. At 5 books, you'd be justified in buying a $200 english-language parser.

Me, I'd spend $100 on WotC data files and run PCGen but maybe you think DMGenie's interface is worth $100.

I'm complaining about PCGen and CMP *because* they have had (until recently) a monopoly on the data in the software arena.

And whose idea did you think that was? I personally do not believe that the CMP folks would have argued for an exclusive contract. CMP was primarily formed as a reaction to Wotc. As I understand it WotC felt that the PCGen datasets infringed on their copyrights but were willing to license them for sale to a company. Had DMGenie been there first and made the contacts with WotC, they may have acquired the license and PCGen would have been out in the cold.

I think PCGen was a better choice for WotC since the software is free, unlike DMGenie, and combined with the R/SRD and OGL datasets, has a zero cost to new users. Really hard to argue with free.

Of course, I also think that the only thing PCGen might have infringed on was Trademarks but it wasn't my call to make. Well, I suppose it could be my call. If I were really rabid about it and willing to face the lawyers I could put out my own LST files of WotC stuff stripped of trademarks. But I think my wife would smother me in my sleep.

*That* is what an electronic RPG aid needs - some initial costs, but the option of either a very inexpensive subscription or a more expensive lifetime subscription.

A "lifetime subscription" is the same as buying something. PCGen is free (no initial cost) and included the R/SRD and some OGL materials. For the price of DMGenie ($35) you can buy the 4 "Complete" books, PHB, DMG, MM, and Expanded Psionics. The cost of PCGen was definitely no hurdle.

DMGenie may, or may not be better. FYI, there are apparently LST->XML conversion tools available. Maybe you can find an XML->DMGenie converter. If so, spend the ~$5/book and get the WotC data files from CMP; they are still for sale the next 9 days.

I've always known that if I hit a wall I could just buy the datasets. Now not having that safety net is making me nervous and willing to consider buying several of the data sets.

 

[Ranger REG]

No seriously, YES!. Paizo began doing it with their dungeon books, not the whole book but much of the handout content at least. I think wotc should follow suit and offer the electronic content with the book. IF this was 10 years ago, I'd say no, but I doent know one DM who doesn't use a computer in their preparation in some way or fashion and I certainly don't think theres anyone on here whom wouldn't find it at least helpful.

Use computer to prep campaign? Yes.

Use closed-content dataset for a specific software app tool? No.

 

[3catcircus]

"Hit Die:d8" is pretty simple. Something like "may use Reflex Save in place of Fort Save as long as they are wearing Light or no armor" is a bit more complex and pretty much require pre-parsing the data by hand or an english-language parser. If you value your time at $7.50/hour, you are probably spending the equivalent of $40/book on your manual approach. At 5 books, you'd be justified in buying a $200 english-language parser.

Me, I'd spend $100 on WotC data files and run PCGen but maybe you think DMGenie's interface is worth $100.

Hmm - If I were to buy the datasets by themselves, it'd cost me $300. Even using bundles, it'd still cost me $268. That is a heck of a lot more expensive than the $35-$45 that other tool publishers are charging.

A "lifetime subscription" is the same as buying something. PCGen is free (no initial cost) and included the R/SRD and some OGL materials. For the price of DMGenie ($35) you can buy the 4 "Complete" books, PHB, DMG, MM, and Expanded Psionics. The cost of PCGen was definitely no hurdle.

Typically, a lifetime subscription is a one-time cost that is a little bit more expensive in initial outlay, but costs a heck of a lot less over a span of time. Look at all of the TiVo owners who shelled out for a lifetime subscription - in only a few years, they are free and clear as compared to those who are on a monthly subscription

DMGenie may, or may not be better. FYI, there are apparently LST->XML conversion tools available. Maybe you can find an XML->DMGenie converter. If so, spend the ~$5/book and get the WotC data files from CMP; they are still for sale the next 9 days.

I've always known that if I hit a wall I could just buy the datasets. Now not having that safety net is making me nervous and willing to consider buying several of the data sets.

I'm not really sure what the *best* tool is - I like DMGenie. I liked PCGen when there was nothing better. I'm sure that something else will come along that I like better than DMGenie. I'd just prefer to have a tool that can use *any* d20 source, has all of the official WotC data available, and is easy to modify/customize.

 

[3catcircus]

Use computer to prep campaign? Yes.

Use closed-content dataset for a specific software app tool? No.

Do you use MS Word? Do you use Windows or MAC OSX? If so, then you *are* using closed-content for a specific software app...

 

[kigmatzomat]

Hmm - If I were to buy the datasets by themselves, it'd cost me $300. Even using bundles, it'd still cost me $268. That is a heck of a lot more expensive than the $35-$45 that other tool publishers are charging.

None of the other publishers have a license to use the other WotC materials so you are comparing market price apples to imaginary oranges. The only things other pubishers can provide are the R/SRD, which PCGen includes for free.

Just for comparison's sake, let's compare to the CMP "base" bundle. $7 if I recall correctly. So....$7+Free Software vs. $35-$45 for data+software. But for arguement's sake, what if CMP has that as a loss-leader price? DMGenie has the R/SRD which is a subset of the DMG, PHB, MM, and ExPsHb. So at $6/book at CMP that comes out to $24. DMGenie paid programmers to write the software (unlike CMP) but CMP is having to pay WotC royalties (unlike DMGenie) so the costs are probably close (assuming CMP's actual cost ~$6 and the data being about 25% of the actual cost of the DMGenie package)

As far as the value goes, you said it takes a couple of hours per book plus some tweaking to get it DMGenied. There are 48 3.5 books at CMP. At 3 hours a book that's 144 hours. After bundling, you would only have to value your time at $2/hour to justify that effort.

If I had been DMGenie, I'd have written a LST file converter. Sure, it means indirectly supporting another publisher but what the hey, DMGenie is being indirectly supported by WotC. LST files have no DRM, no security, and have a moderately well documented format that is completely plain text. The data may be closed content but the format is open.