D&D 5E (2024) CoDzilla? Yeah Na Its CoDGFaW.

Rules and math dont matter as much as social.
Yes, and social is beyond any designer's ability to control.

Hence, while the social sphere is essential and unavoidable, it is also completely irrelevant as far as rule design goes.

Unless you're finally going to agree with me that well-made rules help prevent problems cropping up in the first place? I'd absolutely love that, so please, be my guest.

Average player doesnt care about math that much. Its not fun. Hanging out with friends, eating snacks and insulting the French however...
Ah, but you're conflating things here, aren't you?

The average player doesn't care to do design-the-game kind of math. I fully agree with that.

However, having played in more than one horrendously badly-balanced game (primarily 5e, but also 3.x/PF1e), the average player very, very much cares about not being overshadowed, nor being the one overshadowing others. Because, guess what? THE RULES AND MATH AFFECT THE SOCIAL. Who'd'a thunk it? It's almost like rules actually DO matter and actually DO affect player behavior and actually DO make a very major difference in how players choose to behave, how they treat each other, how they view questionable actions, etc., etc.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


There's no real point in designing for the last group but IMO a designer needs to account for (and design for) all of the other five. The part of your quote I bolded says how to do just this. And yet WotC only designs for the first three groups.
Which is why I keep calling for things like novice levels and incremental advances.

They are very literally the tools you need to craft the kind of experience you want. Like those are literally THE rules needed for cultivating a diverse array of experiences. They equip the GM with multiple clear, explained levers they can pull for producing various things. Consider: The OSR GM desires a high-lethality, gritty survival experience where players are inherently at a disadvantage that they must overcome by cobbling together something from limited resources. This is empowered, not diminished, by giving the GM precise, fine-grained control over how many resources the players have: HP, defenses (saves/AC/resistances/etc.), training (e.g. weapon or armor proficiency, skills, etc.), supernatural powers (abilities, spells, psionics, what-have-you). When robust rules for this are provided, the OSR GM can clearly and, within statistical variance, accurately understand both what power (or lack thereof) their players will possess, and the risk posed by various challenges to them.

But now consider the (very) new-school GM, who desires a gentle, easy introduction. They want to avoid overwhelming players with too many systems at once. Their players are very liable to make mistakes, and having those mistakes be too punishing will drive players away from D&D entirely. They also reap enormous benefits from having precise, fine-grained control over the players' abilities and resources, because that means they can furnish their players with characters that are relatively durable (so they can survive a few small mistakes or one big mistake, or the like) but also relatively sparse (so they don't overwhelm the new player). Far from being a "serve A instead of B", the exact same system actually does meet the needs of both people, despite their wildly divergent interests.

It goes even further though! Imagine the 3e-style GM, call it "middle school" (tongue firmly in cheek). They want a game where everything really does grow naturally out of what was already known. Where the world proceeds like the deist "clockwork of the universe" conception, and mastery is found in those who don't just correctly understand the clockwork, but learn how to predict it in advance. Where the world expands and iterates. These people are ALSO helped! Because having this level of fine-grained control early on means that characters develop entirely "organically", and may end up in highly divergent trajectories from what was originally sought, simply because the choices that made sense were not the choices that ruthless optimization would have indicated.

All three of these GMs are served by having robust, well-built rules for characters that are "before" level 1. All three of them benefit from being able to parcel out character advancements so that levels aren't quite so chunky.

And for those who have no interest in those things? Their presence in no way harms their experience.

This is why I push so damn hard on this issue. It is one of the only places in all of D&D design, as far as I can tell, where there really is a pathway that helps damn near everyone, and the few it doesn't help aren't affected either way. The only people that this raises costs on is the designers, who have to put in the effort to build such a system.

I think you know why I find that a completely acceptable cost.
 

Erm 5.5 let's individual DMs choose how they like to run encounters.
And they have training levels.

2024 starter. Adventures mid for Veterans, very good for newbies.
 


There are, IMO, several ways to address this, some better than others. I would personally like to see, for lack of a better term, "Deeds of Derring-Do". Deeds require practice; you can't just trot out any Deed whenever you like, you have to be prepared for the opportunity when it strikes. Deeds require triggers (most of the time, anyway): you can't just declare that you blind an enemy or whatever, the enemy needs to be sighted in a way that could be taken away, etc. I'm sure there are more do's as well don'ts for how to make this work reasonably, but I'd like to think it's entirely possible. Deeds are organized into Disciplines, reflecting the general...kind of thing those deeds do. Perhaps they can be tied to being trained in specific skills? That seems like a reasonable choice--and a great reason for Fighters and Rogues to have more skills than most characters!

Then, each innately non-caster class (Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, and possibly Monk) picks a few Disciplines at 3rd level, and then one or two of those to unlock the deepest secrets therein at, say, 12th level. Innately part-caster, part-non-caster classes, like Paladin and Ranger (and possibly Monk), qualify for a feat (or perhaps a fighting style?) that lets them pick up a single Discipline, no advanced options. Classes that innately support combat, but require build-up, such as Artificer and Warlock, can spend other resources to acquire a Discipline (perhaps a one-time Invocation for Warlocks, and a delayed subclass feature for Armorer Artificers?), and again, no advanced options.

This creates a space of play that casters have to try to dabble in, if they even qualify at all, and where casters simply cannot reach the highest heights. There's now a reason to be a Fighter instead of a Paladin or Blade Warlock or whatever else: there are secrets of blade and body and bone that only those wholly dedicated to it can reach them.
i meant to reply to this sooner but got waylaid doing that, but anyway...

primarily off the top of my head i think i'd give the martials, (fighter, rogue, barb and monk) and the halfcasters to a lesser degree, two scaling attributes: 'martial might' and 'martial skill', each class would get differing amounts of either (rogue would lean the most into skill, barbarian most into might, the rest fall in-between), these would act as a point buy system for techniques, abilities and boons, including things like designated feats and other martial class abilities.

all available abilities you could acquire with with your might/skill points would be designated as either a might, skill or neutral ability, you would be able to buy might abilities using skill points, or vice-versa, but it would cost more to do so, so you could kit your rogue out with rage, power attack and second wind and indomitable but it wouldn't be as efficient to do so as if you went for things like weapon specialization, martial manoeuvres, and advanced skill applications.
 

i meant to reply to this sooner but got waylaid doing that, but anyway...

primarily off the top of my head i think i'd give the martials, (fighter, rogue, barb and monk) and the halfcasters to a lesser degree, two scaling attributes: 'martial might' and 'martial skill', each class would get differing amounts of either (rogue would lean the most into skill, barbarian most into might, the rest fall in-between), these would act as a point buy system for techniques, abilities and boons, including things like designated feats and other martial class abilities.

all available abilities you could acquire with with your might/skill points would be designated as either a might, skill or neutral ability, you would be able to buy might abilities using skill points, or vice-versa, but it would cost more to do so, so you could kit your rogue out with rage, power attack and second wind and indomitable but it wouldn't be as efficient to do so as if you went for things like weapon specialization, martial manoeuvres, and advanced skill applications.
While I do like the general concept here...I suspect that this is a bit overly fiddly for a lot of players.

That's why I went with the idea I did. A nice, relatively short list (say, 10) of "Disciplines", each of which has some number of basic Deeds and a couple of Master Deeds (or whatever we want to call them). Tying each one to a skill of some kind would help provide the desired link: Rogues value Stealth, Thievery, Deception, Performance, etc., so the Disciplines of those skills would likely be built to be useful to the sneaky Rogue. Conversely, things like Endurance (which I'd bring back), Survival, Athletics, and Intimidate are clearly more naturally Fighter-aligned. And then skills like Medicine, Acrobatics, Perception, and Insight are fairly generic.

That's a list of 12 skills. Four Fighter-aligned, four Rogue-aligned, and four generic. Sounds like a solid basis for a system of Deeds that full-casters don't have the time or training to develop, but part-casters could at least dabble in (only Basic Deeds, no Master Deeds or w/e.)

Solid core list, clear reason why you can't just have everything you want (limited skills known), clear reason why non-casters would have it and full-casters wouldn't, straightforward mechanics, and actually better choices at high level, not just "pick the ones you didn't like enough the first time".
 

While I do like the general concept here...I suspect that this is a bit overly fiddly for a lot of players.
it's really not that fiddly, certainly not more fiddly than understanding spell slots and levels, maybe you remove the ability to buy opposite skills at double cost if you want to keep it really basic.
That's why I went with the idea I did. A nice, relatively short list (say, 10) of "Disciplines", each of which has some number of basic Deeds and a couple of Master Deeds (or whatever we want to call them). Tying each one to a skill of some kind would help provide the desired link: Rogues value Stealth, Thievery, Deception, Performance, etc., so the Disciplines of those skills would likely be built to be useful to the sneaky Rogue. Conversely, things like Endurance (which I'd bring back), Survival, Athletics, and Intimidate are clearly more naturally Fighter-aligned. And then skills like Medicine, Acrobatics, Perception, and Insight are fairly generic.

That's a list of 12 skills. Four Fighter-aligned, four Rogue-aligned, and four generic. Sounds like a solid basis for a system of Deeds that full-casters don't have the time or training to develop, but part-casters could at least dabble in (only Basic Deeds, no Master Deeds or w/e.)

Solid core list, clear reason why you can't just have everything you want (limited skills known), clear reason why non-casters would have it and full-casters wouldn't, straightforward mechanics, and actually better choices at high level, not just "pick the ones you didn't like enough the first time".
i'd say aiming for 'a short list' of anything here is missing the goal, this is meant to be the martial's equivalent of caster's spells, it deserves options and flexibility, to be more than just being 'skills+', i'm still not saying there should be 1-1 class page count but if there's not enough options here to push the fighter from 9 to about say, 25 pages, of class abilities we'd be short-changing them (and of course that's just the abilities they take themselves).
 


it's really not that fiddly, certainly not more fiddly than understanding spell slots and levels, maybe you remove the ability to buy opposite skills at double cost if you want to keep it really basic.

i'd say aiming for 'a short list' of anything here is missing the goal, this is meant to be the martial's equivalent of caster's spells, it deserves options and flexibility, to be more than just being 'skills+', i'm still not saying there should be 1-1 class page count but if there's not enough options here to push the fighter from 9 to about say, 25 pages, of class abilities we'd be short-changing them (and of course that's just the abilities they take themselves).
With 12 Disciplines, each with at least 6 Deeds to pick from (bare minimum 4 "basic" and two "advanced"), you're talking a bare minimum of 12 pages, and those would be small Deeds IMO, six to a page is squeezing tight. That would technically fall short of your goal (9+12=21, not 25), but I feel reasonably confident that this would meet the need.

As for the fiddly nature, even just having skill points at all is pretty fiddly already. 6e, at least IMO, has a very low but nonzero chance of having more fine-grained skills than 5e or 4e did, but it's not going to be all the way back to 3e/PF1e skill points. More like degrees of scaling. 4e had three states (untrained +0/some actions locked, trained +5/all uses unlocked, focused +8/no further unlocks), and 5e has about three and a half (non-proficiency, the rare "half" proficiency, proficiency, expertise). I could see codifying a fourth stage, call it Mastery, which only some classes get. But that's neither here nor there.
 

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Remove ads

Top