I think you are correct for most if not all creatures that either dont want to or cant manifest from the ethereal plane. I was thinking of ghosts when I wrote that post so I should have mentioned that as they can be seen by non-ethereal creatures.
Thanks all. I've got a good sense of it now. Going to have to figure out how to enhance the encounter (finale of Sleeping Dragon's Wake) in a way different than I was thinking. But that's ok
Thanks all. I've got a good sense of it now. Going to have to figure out how to enhance the encounter (finale of Sleeping Dragon's Wake) in a way different than I was thinking. But that's ok
I bought and read these years ago and they were great. Ravenloft: Van Richten’s Monster Hunter’s Compendium's. They re-imagined some classic creatures from D&D, lycanthropes, ghosts, mummys, liches and vampires. The main take away I remember from the books was that everyone of these creatures just by nature of their creation are unique, with no two having the exact same powers. They may be similar but the means to their destruction is tied to the reason, the how and why they were created in the first place. If you're looking at a creating a campaign/adventure ending encounter checking those books out might help. And within reason, I would toss the rules out the window and create a truly unique and epic end boss. After reading them if I had an idea in mind I ran with it regardless if it contradicted printed rules. I just made sure it was fair and winnable for the PCs as long as they prepared properly.
The main take away I remember from the books was that everyone of these creatures just by nature of their creation are unique, with no two having the exact same powers. They may be similar but the means to their destruction is tied to the reason, the how and why they were created in the first place. If you're looking at a creating a campaign/adventure ending encounter checking those books out might help. And within reason, I would toss the rules out the window and create a truly unique and epic end boss. After reading them if I had an idea in mind I ran with it regardless if it contradicted printed rules. I just made sure it was fair and winnable for the PCs as long as they prepared properly.
To give everyone the full details of what I'm doing and perhaps it will spawn it's own valuable discussions;
At the end of Sleeping Dragon's Wake (part of Beyond Icespire adventures) there is a scene
were the ghost of Ebondeath (a legendary black dragon on the verge of becoming a dracolich) posses the body of the ancient green dragon Gnawbones to later continue being a key adversary (and gaining in power).
Conceptually it's great. How its written is lame. The party returns from a quest for Gnawbones and while talking to her Ebondeath shows up, possesses Gnawbones and flies away. No player agency, nothing they can do to impact what happens. Then later they hunt down Ebondeath and kill the body, then they hunt him down and kill his spirit (not much more than the stats of a ghost!).
What I'm planning;
When Ebondeath (ED) shows up to possess Gnawbones (GB), BD will be able to use her legendary resistances to keep ED to possess her for at least 3 turns. During those turns, I want the party to be able to intervene and/or have the chance to effect the outcome. (Hence the discussions about attacking ethereal creatures). The party has magic items and lots of magic missiles, so incorporeal really won't add much hinderance to them attacking EB if he is not ethereal. Advice on designing this encounter would be welcome.
If the party 'wins' it will be to drive EB off before he takes control of GB. If driven off, he will probably possess one of the less powerful black dragons from the Mere of Deadmen (that is detailed in previous lore, not current adventures). This impacts the party when they fight the Battle of Leilon, do they have to defeat an ancient green dragon version of EB, or an adult black dragon.
Later, During Divine Contention and after the battle of Leilon, the party hunts down ED to kill him for good. Again, good concepts, lousy execution as ED is about a CR 7 ghost and is supposed to be fought solo as the BBEG versus a party of level ~11. Here I plan to introduce something like a lich's phylactery. And, inspired by Harry Potter, perhaps ED actually has multiple phylacteries (hence while he's been around for sooo long).
Again, ethereal and incorporeal will need to factored into this.
To give everyone the full details of what I'm doing and perhaps it will spawn it's own valuable discussions;
At the end of Sleeping Dragon's Wake (part of Beyond Icespire adventures) there is a scene
were the ghost of Ebondeath (a legendary black dragon on the verge of becoming a dracolich) posses the body of the ancient green dragon Gnawbones to later continue being a key adversary (and gaining in power).
Conceptually it's great. How its written is lame. The party returns from a quest for Gnawbones and while talking to her Ebondeath shows up, possesses Gnawbones and flies away. No player agency, nothing they can do to impact what happens. Then later they hunt down Ebondeath and kill the body, then they hunt him down and kill his spirit (not much more than the stats of a ghost!).
What I'm planning;
When Ebondeath (ED) shows up to possess Gnawbones (GB), BD will be able to use her legendary resistances to keep ED to possess her for at least 3 turns. During those turns, I want the party to be able to intervene and/or have the chance to effect the outcome. (Hence the discussions about attacking ethereal creatures). The party has magic items and lots of magic missiles, so incorporeal really won't add much hinderance to them attacking EB if he is not ethereal. Advice on designing this encounter would be welcome.
If the party 'wins' it will be to drive EB off before he takes control of GB. If driven off, he will probably possess one of the less powerful black dragons from the Mere of Deadmen (that is detailed in previous lore, not current adventures). This impacts the party when they fight the Battle of Leilon, do they have to defeat an ancient green dragon version of EB, or an adult black dragon.
Later, During Divine Contention and after the battle of Leilon, the party hunts down ED to kill him for good. Again, good concepts, lousy execution as ED is about a CR 7 ghost and is supposed to be fought solo as the BBEG versus a party of level ~11. Here I plan to introduce something like a lich's phylactery. And, inspired by Harry Potter, perhaps ED actually has multiple phylacteries (hence while he's been around for sooo long).
Again, ethereal and incorporeal will need to factored into this.
Without having given it a whole lot of thought 2 things came to mind. 1) If the battle takes place in Gnawbones lair Id provide some clue to an item in her hoard that can ultimately help destroy Ebondeath. 2) I might have Ebondeths phylactery on the Ethereal plane.
EDIT: Just read the dracholichs spirit and phylactery have to be on the same plane so that might not work.
What are the age categories for the two dragons? That in and of itself can have great effect on the outcome? I recognize both names just dont remember anything about them or where I read about them.
What are the age categories for the two dragons? That in and of itself can have great effect on the outcome? I recognize both names just dont remember anything about them or where I read about them.
Given how lose 5E is with lore, Gnawbones is listed as Ancient. Ebondeath isn't listed, except with the specs of a enhanced ghost of CR 7. But lore wise he is ancient as well.
Many way you can skin that cat. When I ran Tomb of Annihilation, the PCs traded certain items to one of the night hags that allowed her to craft an Ether Staff with 7 charges, which the hag could use to attack across the boundary between the Border Ethereal and the Material Planes. It was pretty frustrating for the players, but thankfully was limited use, and they thought to cast see invisibility and were able to negotiate with the hag.
You could make it a situation where the monster needs to physically manifest to do something in the physical world, and there's the opportunity for the PCs to lure or trick it out of the Border Ethereal. So it's a roleplaying challenge.
Maybe this monster attacks through reflective surfaces, and can (while itself on the Border Ethereal) only attack creatures on the Material Plane if the creature is within 5 feet of a reflective surface.
Or you could have a narrative in which quicksilver/mercury poured over a blade allows it to damage creatures on the Border Ethereal for a minute, but of course you have to find a way to see them on your own.
So if I houserule that Prismatic Spray/Wall shifts creatures to the Ethereal Plane instead of "random plane of X", it still removes them from play until they can find a way to get back - but someone in the party with the ability to see them could still sign and coordinate a place to go or plan.
So if I houserule that Prismatic Spray/Wall shifts creatures to the Ethereal Plane instead of "random plane of X", it still removes them from play until they can find a way to get back - but someone in the party with the ability to see them could still sign and coordinate a place to go or plan.
Personally as its random, I'd rule as a DM that even if its decided that the player is going to the ethereal I think Id give a slight 1-2 percent chance that the player shifts to a location in the vicinity of the party so they could see them on the border ethereal rather than some other completely other random location on the ethereal plane. But that's just me, otherwise it seems just a very minor inconvenience easily overcome.
