Combat Expertise and Flat-footedness

[Square Peg]

Hey, does the bonus from Combat Expertise or fighting defensively count when the character using it is flat-footed (such as from being feinted or fighting an invisible attacker)? It's a dodge bonus, and just about every dodge bonus under the sun says it doesn't work when the character is flat-footed, but it's not stated explicitly in the DMG that dodge bonuses don't work when flat footed.

I guess my question is, should characters be able to be all dodgy if they're supposed to be caught off guard?

 

[Asha'man]

It's not? I was certain it did say that Dodge bonuses are lost when you're denied Dexterity.

 

[irdeggman]

PHB pg 93 under the Dodge feat

A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

Also Rules Compendium (pg 21)

Dodge bonuse stack with other dodge bonuses, but don't apply whenever a creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC.

 

[Square Peg]

Alright, thanks.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Hey, does the bonus from Combat Expertise or fighting defensively count when the character using it is flat-footed (such as from being feinted or fighting an invisible attacker)? It's a dodge bonus, and just about every dodge bonus under the sun says it doesn't work when the character is flat-footed, but it's not stated explicitly in the DMG that dodge bonuses don't work when flat footed.

I guess my question is, should characters be able to be all dodgy if they're supposed to be caught off guard?

in order to be able to use Combat Expertise, the character invoking the feat has to actually make an attack action in melee first. Then (and only then) does the Combat Expertise last until the character's next turn. so, if the PC is flat-footed at the beginning of combat, then they cannot get the Combat Expertise bonus.

Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

SRD - Feats All

 

[Infiniti2000]

True that, NewJeffCT! I believe both cases the OP mentioned are not flat-footed. A valid example, however, would be balancing.

 

[irdeggman]

True that, NewJeffCT! I believe both cases the OP mentioned are not flat-footed. A valid example, however, would be balancing.

True but in both cases the character is denied their Dex bonus to AC and hence any dodge bonuses they may have.

I can see how this question can arise though.

PC acts first and decides to fight defensively thus gaining the dodge bonus to his AC for the round.

Opponent feints the PC thus negating his Dex Bonus to AC for the opponents next attack (with Improved fFeinting the attack can be in the same round)

or

an opponent is invisible and attacks the PC.

In both cases the PC is not flat-footed, but is denied dodge bonuses.