Combat Expertise + Fight Defensively

Schmoe · May 2, 2007

In another thread, someone suggested that you could not use Combat Expertise while Fighting Defensively at the same time. I had personally always assumed the combination was supported by the rules, but I admit I haven't researched it. Does anyone know definitively whether this combination is legal or not?

jodyjohnson · May 2, 2007

It is called out in the actual PHB text as an option.

PHB 140 under the description for Fighting Defensively.

Legildur · May 2, 2007

PHB p140: "...This bonus stacks with the AC bonus granted by the Combat Expertise feat (page 92)."

phindar · May 2, 2007

Yeah, its a little hinky because the text of Combat Expertise implies that the feat replaces fighting defensively, but the text of fighting defensively states that they can be used together.

Ender_rpm · May 2, 2007

As long as you make an attack in that round. Important tidbit that. Had a player try to use the stacking rule, but not go full defensive so as not to give up AoOs. Umm, no.

Schmoe · May 2, 2007

Ender_rpm said:
As long as you make an attack in that round. Important tidbit that. Had a player try to use the stacking rule, but not go full defensive so as not to give up AoOs. Umm, no.

First, thanks everyone for the replies.

Second, this sounds like a confusion between "Fight Defensively" and "Full Defense". You still threaten an area with "Fight Defensively", and can therefore make AoOs. Since you can fight defensively and use combat expertise, you could take a -9 to hit in return for a +7 AC and still threaten an area to get AoOs. You could not take Full Defense with expertise, as expertise requires you to make an attack and Full Defense precludes an attack.

phindar · May 2, 2007

Yeah, that's the hinky part (I was trying to remember it). Expertise + Fighting Defensively gives you a better AC bonus that Full Defense. Its just kind of weird that with Expertise, you can be less defensive and get a better bonus out of it.

Ender_rpm · May 2, 2007

Schmoe said:
First, thanks everyone for the replies.

Second, this sounds like a confusion between "Fight Defensively" and "Full Defense". You still threaten an area with "Fight Defensively", and can therefore make AoOs. Since you can fight defensively and use combat expertise, you could take a -9 to hit in return for a +7 AC and still threaten an area to get AoOs. You could not take Full Defense with expertise, as expertise requires you to make an attack and Full Defense precludes an attack.

Yes, that was the point I was making

werk · May 2, 2007

phindar said:
Yeah, that's the hinky part (I was trying to remember it). Expertise + Fighting Defensively gives you a better AC bonus that Full Defense. Its just kind of weird that with Expertise, you can be less defensive and get a better bonus out of it.

At the cost of a feat with an Int prereq.