Combat Expertise Weirdness

[Deset Gled]

If you miss nothing, then logically, you hit something. That, of course, happens to be the secret for flight: Throw yourself at the ground and miss.

Also...

Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss.

Should a natural 1 be treated as a casting of the Fly spell, or does the character gain a new movement type? Also, can a player opt to "Take 1" on a roll?

 

[Particle_Man]

When attacking invisible opponents with a meelee weapon, you have to declare the space you are attacking into.

So if you want the combat expertise bonus, simply declare that you are attacking whatever invisible opponent may be in the space 5 feet in front of you. After all, you don't know for sure that there ISN'T an invisible opponent there. (Maybe one especially immune to normal means of detecting invisible creatures, like, protected by a god or something. You never know).

And hey, if the DM happened to put an invisible opponent there, and you hit it despite your BAB penalty from using combat expertise, and you get past the 50% concealment miss chance, that's just pure gravy.

Or, if your DM is kinder, you can just "use up" a standard action (or full attack action) doing nothing and just bask in the glow of your CE AC bonus.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, but the thing is, the expertise bonus applies even when you're not in danger of being hit by that person, such as if you're attempting to poke him with a spear-pike, or shoot him in the head.

If you're trying to shoot him, and you're not in danger of being hit, then you're not in melee, and Expertise doesn't apply. Unless some other opponent threatens you, in which case it does.

So if you want the combat expertise bonus, simply declare that you are attacking whatever invisible opponent may be in the space 5 feet in front of you. After all, you don't know for sure that there ISN'T an invisible opponent there. (Maybe one especially immune to normal means of detecting invisible creatures, like, protected by a god or something. You never know).

But if there isn't an invisible opponent nearby, then you don't fit the definition (quoted above) of "in melee", and Expertise doesn't apply.

Whether you think there might be someone there or not... if there is no opponent, there is no melee.

-Hyp.

 

[bensei]

So that means, if two are fighting with swords, and you attack one of them with your guisarme from 10 ft. away, you cannot use Combat Expertise?

That is really odd.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So that means, if two are fighting with swords, and you attack one of them with your guisarme from 10 ft. away, you cannot use Combat Expertise?

No, you can.

"Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other."

You threaten him with your guisarme, so you're in melee.

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Just an attempt to explain something:

If you fight with someone, you may use him easily to stand between you and the others. E.g. using Expertise means positioning and dodging behind melee opponents, therefore avoiding other opponents or making it hard for them to attack you. Total defense OTOH, means hopping around ... does not help as much against an archer as the other stuff (if you are good at Expertise).

As far as Expertise against invisible opponents... don't forget you lose the dodge bonus to AC vs invisible opponents.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As far as Expertise against invisible opponents... don't forget you lose the dodge bonus to AC vs invisible opponents.

They're not trying to gain an AC bonus against invisible opponents.

They're using "melee" with a putative invisible opponent (who probably doesn't exist) to gain an AC bonus against ranged attacks from everyone else.

But if there's no opponent to be in melee with, you're not in melee, so it doesn't work.

-Hyp.

 

[bensei]

If you fight with someone, you may use him easily to stand between you and the others. E.g. using Expertise means positioning and dodging behind melee opponents, therefore avoiding other opponents or making it hard for them to attack you. Total defense OTOH, means hopping around ... does not help as much against an archer as the other stuff (if you are good at Expertise).

That is a nice interpretation for explaining why Expertise and Defensive Fighting (or total defence) do stack. However, how could one explain why Expertise gives an AC bonus against the opponent you are currently in melee with?

 

[Darklone]

I always described it as going weapon to weapon and leading the opponent around... Essentially using your weapon to block your opponents weapon as well as your own.

Used this tactic pretty often in conjunction with a friend who attacked the guys I blocked and who blocked the guys weapons who attacked me... Hmm. Guess you can use Aid Another together with Combat Expertise.

 

[Particle_Man]

They're not trying to gain an AC bonus against invisible opponents.

They're using "melee" with a putative invisible opponent (who probably doesn't exist) to gain an AC bonus against ranged attacks from everyone else.

But if there's no opponent to be in melee with, you're not in melee, so it doesn't work.

-Hyp.

Ok, but would you then disallow all meelee attacks vs. illusions? That seems to become a very easy way to detect an illusion, eh? You try a meelee attack, and the DM says "Sorry, you are not allowed to make a meelee attack". By the strict letter of the rules, this is what would follow. But I think that the spirit of the rules overrides the letter of the rules in this case, as it seems obvious that illusions should not be detectable so easily.

But then, if you can make a meelee attack against an illusion, when there is no real opponent there, I don't see why you can't make a meelee attack against a potential opponent who happens to be invisible, and who might after all be there. (Taken the other way, it can become a way to detect an invisible opponent -- try attacking into
a square -- if the DM lets you roll, then there must be an invisible opponent around, threatening you, and that you threaten. If he doesn't, then you are safe -- for now).