Combat issues: slayer + at-will magic missile.

[tlantl]

Kobolds are historically easy to kill. in 1e/2e kobolds had 1-4 hit points. They were the fodder race, after 1st level the fighters in a party could kill one for each level they had each round. Hell even their armor class was insignificant. I never used them since it was like handing out free treasure and experience points.


Of all of the spells to take issue with I think the magic missile is the least offender. Arc lightning doing 4d6 to one opponent and 2d6 to another being a second level spell is pushing things.

I can't be as objective as I'd like when it comes to at will spells but I think they are, for the most part, too powerful to be called cantrips. Maybe using a smaller die modified by your ability score changes that, maybe not.

 

[Gargoyle]

So why is it you dislike automatic damage every round? What would your opinion be of an aura ability that did 1 point of damage per round to everything within 5ft.?

Personally I think it's fine because I think 1st level characters should feel more powerful than some monsters, and because it will speed up fights with lots of low hp monsters, and rewards players who conserve bigger spells for bigger foes. Instead of fireballing the room, they are encouraged to pick them off.

But probably like the OP, I haven't actually ran the playtest yet, I'm just stating my opinion based on reading the material. After I run it next week, I may agree with him.

 

[eamon]

I think both magic missile and the Reaper theme are very, very weak. Looks like most people will be hitting well more than 50% of the time, making a small chance of little damage rather unattractive outside of this one specialized niche. God forbid you encounter goblins rather than kobolds, making both almost useless due to their overpowering 5HP.

Unless you're fighting 1 or 2 hitpoint creatures, neither option actually reliably kills, and at 3 hitpoints only the reaper does.

 

[Minigiant]

Well

1) First. It is not the Fighter, it the Slayer theme.
Slayer is to 2hp mook
as
Heavyweight Boxing Champ is to human toddler

2) If you get OHKOs by a Magic Missile, you are pathetic.

D&D's definition of pathetic has a picture of a common kobold next to it.

 

[hafrogman]

For those that at least partially agree with BT (more people seem to agree on the fighter than on the wizard), would you mind saying why this is a flaw?

As I said in my first post . . . I just find it boring. The slayer literally has no reason to roll the die. It's not so much that there is no chance of failure so much as there is no chance of success. Roll a 20 and all you get is a gorier description of the kobold's death from your DM.

It'll become a non-issue very quickly, but for kobolds and rats and other minion-esque monsters, the slayer may as well take a nap.

I understand there's this design goal where different characters excel in different encounters . . . I guess minions aren't the slayer's encounter. But it still just feels 'blah' to me.

 

[underfoot007ct]

Magic Missile should either require a check or have limits on its use. I'd prefer the former ("Drop the 3e dreck," to paraphrase the OP), but an inerrant, infinite Magic Missile is a little crazy.

I think MM sounds fine. I prefer a Mage/Wizard casting MMs than throw daggers or wield a crossbow, as to converse spells.

But can you explain why you think this is "a little crazy"?

 

[Gold Roger]

Well

1) First. I is not the Fighter, it the Slayer theme.
Slayer is to 2hp mook
as
Heavyweight Boxing Champ is to human toddler

2) If you get OHKOs by a Magic Missile, you are pathetic.

D&D's definition of pathetic has a picture of a common kobold next to it.

Exactly. The problem only occurs with common kobolds, traditionaly the weakest thing around (well, there's rats, but those really should be swarms).

I must admit I raised an eyebrow when I read that magic missile is a cantrip and another when I saw it scales. I'd prefer it as a first level spell that doesn't autoscale and gives multiple missiles from the start, but my aditude there is "lets wait and see how this turns out".

 

[mach1.9pants]

I think both magic missile and the Reaper theme are very, very weak. Looks like most people will be hitting well more than 50% of the time, making a small chance of little damage rather unattractive outside of this one specialized niche. God forbid you encounter goblins rather than kobolds, making both almost useless due to their overpowering 5HP.

Unless you're fighting 1 or 2 hitpoint creatures, neither option actually reliably kills, and at 3 hitpoints only the reaper does.

I wouldn't say very very weak but not that great. Certainly nothing to bother about, esp. Magic Missile. The cleric 1d8+wis is much better, and some one mentioned arc lightning well IMO searing light is almost as good and is first level cleric spell.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Damage on a miss is not a a good idea. If you deal damage on a miss, why roll an attack?

Also, 2 hp for a kobol;d is absurdly low. If an average 1st level PC is in double digits, a kobold shouldn't be that pathetic.

The at-will MM is strikes me as overpowered, but is not as big of a conceptual issue. It seems like MM should be a non-cantrip spell that deals meaningful damage, while the damage cantrips should deal decent, but not automatic damage.

Number of problems with daily magic missile: none.
Number of problems with at-will magic missile: kitespam.
Number of problems with at-will magic missile with an attack roll: it's not D&D.

Rught on.

All these are mistakes that are of the sort that a playtst should be able to fix, so let's get on it.

 

[slobster]

Damage on a miss is not a a good idea. If you deal damage on a miss, why roll an attack?

Because on an attack, you deal more damage. Or inflict a condition in addition to the damage. Or both.

Note that the damage on a miss phenomenon is in no way new. Fireballs have been dealing damage on a miss (enemy makes their save) for a long time now.

Why have them roll their save if they are going to take damage either way?