Combat issues: slayer + at-will magic missile.

[Ahnehnois]

Because on an attack, you deal more damage. Or inflict a condition in addition to the damage. Or both.

Note that the damage on a miss phenomenon is in no way new. Fireballs have been dealing damage on a miss (enemy makes their save) for a long time now.

Why have them roll their save if they are going to take damage either way?

That is an apples to oranges comparison in that fireballs do not involve an attack roll, have a limited number of uses, have a save rolled by the defender, and, most importantly, are magic. Not really seeing the relevance of this comparison.

 

[slobster]

That is an apples to oranges comparison in that fireballs do not involve an attack roll, have a limited number of uses, have a save rolled by the defender, and, most importantly, are magic. Not really seeing the relevance of this comparison.

Attack rolls are just saves rolled by the initiating party instead of the defender.

And I was responding to your original post, which just said that damage on a miss=bad. If you meant something else, that's cool. Just say so. It's easy to talk past each other online, when you realize that you had one thing in mind but that what you actually ended up typing sounds different than what you meant to say.

So if you meant to say that damage on a miss is bad for at-will attacks, then yes, my fireball example doesn't address your concern. I still disagree with your conclusion, though. Damage on a miss is ok with me, because you still want to hit to deal all that extra damage.

Now the concern mentioned upthread that attacking kobolds as a slayer is boring because it really doesn't matter whether you hit or miss, that I find a valid concern. My solution would be to remove or at least minimize the number of enemies with truly tiny quantities of hp, so that the slayer kills them in one swing on a hit but takes two or more if he keeps missing.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Attack rolls are just saves rolled by the initiating party instead of the defender.

Well, not exactly, but let's move on.

And I was responding to your original post, which just said that damage on a miss=bad. If you meant something else, that's cool. Just say so. It's easy to talk past each other online, when you realize that you had one thing in mind but that what you actually ended up typing sounds different than what you meant to say.

Damage on a miss is bad. A fireball or other similar effect is not a targeted attack, but an area effect. This is a rather large difference. I would expect any area effect, magical or otherwise, to work differently than a targeted attack (and be much harder to avoid). If you are asking whether I think damage on a fireball should be automatic, the answer is no (though at least in 3e evasion is not uncommon). However, that is an entirely separate issue from the thread topic.

So if you meant to say that damage on a miss is bad for at-will attacks, then yes, my fireball example doesn't address your concern. I still disagree with your conclusion, though. Damage on a miss is ok with me, because you still want to hit to deal all that extra damage.

It is not alright to have any physical attack have no chance of truly missing and dealing no damage. This (a miss) should be a possible outcome of any direct, targeted attack, regardless of whether it's a sword or a Melf's Acid Arrow. It doesn't make sense that simply by virtue of declaring the intent to make an attack, a character is 100% guaranteed to deal damage to the target. There are balance issues there, too, but that's not the heart of it.

Now the concern mentioned upthread that attacking kobolds as a slayer is boring because it really doesn't matter whether you hit or miss, that I find a valid concern. My solution would be to remove or at least minimize the number of enemies with truly tiny quantities of hp, so that the slayer kills them in one swing on a hit but takes two or more if he keeps missing.

That much we agree on.

 

[Scribble]

Will the attack be as boring against enemies that aren't as weak as kobolds?

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[slobster]

It is not alright to have any physical attack have no chance of truly missing and dealing no damage. This (a miss) should be a possible outcome of any direct, targeted attack, regardless of whether it's a sword or a Melf's Acid Arrow. It simply doesn't make sense that simply by vitrue of declaring the intent to make an attack, a character is 100% guaranteed to deal damage to the target. There are balance issues there, too, but that's not the heart of it.

A large part of our disagreement is going to hinge on a subject that I have little interest in debating: the level of abstraction used to interpret what hit points mean. I'm fine with a high level of abstraction. I suspect you aren't. So to me, it makes sense that a seasoned fighter can swing and not quite hit you, but it still wears you down to avoid his well-placed strikes, so you become fatigued. How do we model that fatigue? A loss of hit points.

Now if you do disagree with me about abstracting hp mechanics to such an extent, you aren't wrong. We just have different tastes. It will lead you to dislike mechanics like the slayer's damage-on-a-miss while I admire them.

At this point it's mostly a matter of taste, so I think we can just agree to disagree.

 

[jadrax]

The Slayer Theme is intrinsically optional, it even says on the pre-gen character sheet that Themes are removable, so I don't really see how people can take issue with it.

The Magic Missile I think is going to need testing, a lot. This is a power that replaced Flame Javelin (which needed a Hit Roll) based on the player feedback.

 

[Ahnehnois]

A large part of our disagreement is going to hinge on a subject that I have little interest in debating: the level of abstraction used to interpret what hit points mean. I'm fine with a high level of abstraction. I suspect you aren't. So to me, it makes sense that a seasoned fighter can swing and not quite hit you, but it still wears you down to avoid his well-placed strikes, so you become fatigued. How do we model that fatigue? A loss of hit points.

Now if you do disagree with me about abstracting hp mechanics to such an extent, you aren't wrong. We just have different tastes. It will lead you to dislike mechanics like the slayer's damage-on-a-miss while I admire them.

At this point it's mostly a matter of taste, so I think we can just agree to disagree.

Well, I'm okay with hit points being very, very abstract.

But not that abstract.

So, yes, let's leave it at that and let others read and post as they may.

 

[Stalker0]

As far as the "boring" argument, I don't see it myself.

Sure if every battle was an endless string of 2 hp mooks than it would be boring. But after facing some tough guys, getting a fight where I get to kill a monster with every swing sounds AWESOME (especially with cleave, two monsters with every swing guaranteed....Sauron eat your heart out).

Personally the only issue I have with this ability is that it will scale so poorly, just like it did in 4e. At 1st level, doing 3 autodamage is great. At 10th, not so much.

Now that may be intentional, the themes may not be designed to scale, or additional themes might get added, I don't know.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Philosophically, I have qualms about having an at-will Magic Missile. I believe it should be a first level spell, and I believe it should be made good enough to deserve that spell slot.

After a session of testing, I think I can safely say that there are no actual gameplay problems with an at-will Magic Missile. They're just kobolds, anyway. Against fewer, tougher foes, I believe the Fighter will become the all-star with his awesome HP and attack damage (and Magic Missile won't help much, being arguably worse than a crossbow).

 

[Paraxis]

The other thing is that the damage on a miss is part of the slayer theme I think the cleric of pelor with the slayer theme would be cool auto damage on the radiant ray thing.

I do like the idea of making magic missle a first level spell that shoots out multiple missles from the get go, so say it shoots out 3 x 1d4+1 auto hitting missles that you target as you like about the same as other first level spells and worth spending a daily spell slot on.

But the wizard does need a ranged at-will maybe a d6+int mod damage that needs an attack roll maybe "frozen arrow" or something.