Combat issues: slayer + at-will magic missile.

[Stormonu]

From our playtest, Light was too good and MM wasn't just right.

With light, there is no reason for anyone in a group to buy torches or lanterns (and yet the playtest wizard starts with 6 torches...); it's far too easy for the wizard to constantly spam it when it runs out (an elvin wizard, who needs no sleep, could be the group's nightlight). Give the party a reason to carry torches, lanterns or make a campfire at night. And I hope we never see continual light and everburning torches again - or only with artifact-level rarity.

Magic Missile is too good as a cantrip in the fact it never misses (allowing it to be used in melee without detriment). But it's too weak with the no-scaling rules as a 1st level spell (did anyone notice in the playtest it DOES scale?)

In both cases, if they remained at-wills, but had some sort of recharge mechanic, I think I'd be fine with it. Something like for light where the wizard had to wait an hour between uses, or for magic missile the wizard had to give up movement or perhaps wait a round before it could be used once again (and could use other spells in the meantime).

In fact, I think I wish ALL the wizard's at-wills required a down-time wait between uses, it'd bring the power level down an acceptable notch without making them useless.

 

[IronWolf]

What on Earth does "kitespam" mean? Is this another MMORPG term?

I think he is mixing terms (or my MMO terminology is becoming more antiquated).

Kiting, pretty much keeping just out of reach of the enemy which tends to pull them towards you, but with you staying just out of reach.

Spam, and of course casting Magic Missile over and over as you have the enemies chasing you through the dungeon.

 

[Fifth Element]

With light, there is no reason for anyone in a group to buy torches or lanterns (and yet the playtest wizard starts with 6 torches...); it's far too easy for the wizard to constantly spam it when it runs out (an elvin wizard, who needs no sleep, could be the group's nightlight). Give the party a reason to carry torches, lanterns or make a campfire at night.

You can't set things on fire with a light spell. There's your reason right there.

I don't think giving low-level characters a reason to carry torches should be very high on the developers' list of priorities, though.

 

[Stormonu]

You can't set things on fire with a light spell. There's your reason right there.

I don't think giving low-level characters a reason to carry torches should be very high on the developers' list of priorities, though.

A flask of oil would have been far more appropriate for that. My guess is that the torches are part of an "adventuring kit", and it was just overlooked.

However, we shouldn't see designers wasting starting money with gear that's redundant (the torches) or a premium for armor (The Pelor cleric's armor).

I still strongly dislike spammable light as too high-magic - just as much as I hate sunrods and their alchemical ilk. Worrying about light sources, food, ammo and other limited resources are things I like to see in my D&D.

 

[CleverNickName]

I agree with the OP on both issues.

The Slayer feat is already overpowered at low levels...what is it going to look like at higher levels, when Bob the Slayer is swinging a holy flaming bastard sword +4, or any other effect that increases damage? And even if damage is capped at the ability mod forever, it still hurts my brain...in my mind, when you miss your target, you fail to do damage. It's always been that way, and I see no reason to change it. So, if this feat makes it into the final rendition of the game, I will most likely houserule it out.

My problem with Magic Missile is that it is an at-will power AND it doesn't require an attack roll. In my opinion it is okay to have one or the other, but not both. So if this version of MM makes it into the final rules, I will have to houserule it to have either a daily limit of uses (3 + Spell Ability Modifier, perhaps?), or make it a 1st level spell, or change it to require a ranged attack roll.

Both houserules are fairly easy to implement. It would just be nice to not have to do it at all.

 

[Hangfire]

After our playtest I got thinking about the auto-damage from the Slayer and MM. My problem is with auto damage in general. In D&D there is no difference between a monster with full hit points and one with just a few left. With these abilities though those nearly dead monsters are no longer a problem. Doesn't matter what their AC is, they're toast sooner than they would be otherwise (given the chance to miss by the PCs). If both abilities scale, then the point at which a monster becomes an non issue in a fight will increase. I'm also not sure how this will work with additional abilities, like cleave. Traditionally you needed to drop a foe to cleave another - now the Slayer doesn't even have to worry about hitting to activate this feat (and I don't know that the feat will stay the same - I'm hoping not, I'm just throwing out an example). So, for me, auto damage is a problem in the game.

I guess it would less of a problem if the abilities weren't constantly usable. I have no problem with the wizard killing off an almost dead foe, if he's spending a spell slot to do it.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Damage on a miss needs to go. I can kill Orcus without leaving my couch.

 

[pneumatik]

You know, I can't help but read the OP as, "the play test has two problems: the wizard is too awesome at using magic and the slayer is too awesome at killing puny monsters." I interpret those as positives. I want my PCs to be awesome. I'm tired of starting at third level so that I don't suck. There's plenty of design space for weaker level one characters, but I honestly think most players don't want there new characters dying constantly like in old school DnD.

 

[Astrosicebear]

I agree with the OP on both issues.

The Slayer feat is already overpowered at low levels...

Defeating minions is overpowered at 1st? The fact is the designers have said the minion mechanic in 4e was a good thing, and wanted something equivalent. The slayer theme is just that.

what is it going to look like at higher levels, when Bob the Slayer is swinging a holy flaming bastard sword +4, or any other effect that increases damage?

-->And even if damage is capped at the ability mod forever, it still hurts my brain...in my mind, when you miss your target, you fail to do damage. Answered your own question, but yes it is clearly capped at ability mod. And, as we all know the designer's intent is to keep math small, and keep the ability scores the main focus. I high doubt we will see inflated ability scores beyond +6 in most campaigns. Heck even the DM guide provided a list of appropriate DCs and anything over 19 (still achievable on a straight roll, btw) is listed as "extreme".

So, maybe I just don't get it. Maybe I'm progressive. I've played 4e and thought the minions were interesting. I've played a lot of D&D and cannot count the number of times as a player I've dreaded the next 4-5 rounds of droll combat finishing an encounter that was all too clearly over. The slayer, and to extend 5e's Magic Missile fixes that.

Now lets just look at what the hubub is about. 3 monsters in the entire adventure can be killed outright by Slayer. Kobolds, rats, and a giant centipede. People are making a huge stink about Slayer because it makes "minions" of the 3 monsters in the adventure that are, for all intents and purposes, MINIONS.

And practically it makes sense. A Slayer is a killing machine. HP is ambiguous, we all agree to that. A Slayer simply allows all his attacks to wear down his opponent. Either he hit, but not with enough force to cause serious damage. Or his attacks, even when they miss, cause the opponent to use vital energy avoiding the attack. Its explainable a thousand different ways.

I've played the fighter in this playtest, and frankly it let me feel powerful. Nothing like a system that says, "Oh the fighter in our system is great... when he hits."

Which brings the second point around, Magic Missile. As previously said, MM always hits. It is as D&D as it gets. And yes, we are complaining about 5 damage always hitting, 10 at 3rd level, 15 at 6th and 20 at 9th, maxed of course. Avg them out and you get 3,6,9,12.


Again I do not see the huge deal here. Looking at the list, and having played with a good player on the wizard the char has many options beyond spamming MM. It's a great option instead of a crossbow, or daggers. It makes a wizard feel like a magic caster.

Could it be house ruled? Absolutely, that's the great thing about this base core system. Dont like something, change it without issue. 3+ability is a great idea, and frankly if monster HP goes downhill I can actually see this being the case.

In my playtest, it allowed the wizard player freedom to choose when to cast his good spells, and extended the length of the adventuring day.

 

[Fifth Element]

...in my mind, when you miss your target, you fail to do damage. It's always been that way, and I see no reason to change it.

Whoops. Factually incorrect.

My problem with Magic Missile is that it is an at-will power AND it doesn't require an attack roll. In my opinion it is okay to have one or the other, but not both.

I think a lot of people would agree with that. The 4E designers agreed with that, but when they implemented a MM that required an attack roll, certain other people freaked.

Damage on a miss needs to go. I can kill Orcus without leaving my couch.

Well, some players will probably be sitting on couches when they kill Orcus, but others will be on chairs, others on divans, others on stools, others sitting on the floor. Some might be standing as well.

You know, I can't help but read the OP as, "the play test has two problems: the wizard is too awesome at using magic and the slayer is too awesome at killing puny monsters."

Heh, indeed.