Combat takes too long

[bardolph]

I rather like combat length in 4e. Seems "just right" to me. Granted, I've only run 1st level so far, but those 1st-level battles seemed to play like the "sweet spot" of 5th level in previous editions, rather than being a 1-hit-kill-fest.

 

[Machus]

If I were to place my finger on what is eating time up it is all of the tactical miniature elements. I move here, I miss causes him to shift etc. Which are interesting, however they do take time to implement.

I've always used minis so I can't judge that really. But I do know that once you have the minis thing down (especially GM and the maps), and everyone knows the 4e rules as well as they knew their previous game rules, it will speed up. We use to get through 1-2 combats per ~4 hours of gaming. We can get through 3 now, so for us it seems to have gotten faster.

Also, with the increased HP it feels like this endless attrition. My wizard (that died last session ) needed at least four hits with his 1d6+4 damage at-will power to kill a 30 hp kobold.

Wizards don't seem to be optimized to take down solo opponents with at-wills (or in general) They are optimized to do good damage when taking into account AOEs. So while it took you 4 hits to drop one kobold, often if you had AOE you might drop two in the exact same time, or if you're lucky, 3
Strikers and fighters output good damage especially early on relatively speaking. At-wil for rogues can reach over 30 in one hit. Slap your strikers for not taking out your kobold faster I can't say it was any better in 3.5, with all spells being DAILY, I often had to manage my good spell use to the boss fights, and if I was foolish enough to load up on damage spells, it was torturously slow for me to take someone out (and costly). It was generally better to do things to help everyone else take them out faster (haste, sleep, web, clouds, glitterdust, etc.) At higher levels, I think with more encounter/daily's, you'll be leaning on at-will damage less. Just a guess.

I dont mind the extra hit points, but it also seems that damage has dramatically decreased from previous incarnations of the game. Damage needs to be increased for all characters except possibly the ranger who seems pretty solid. What has your experience been with this?

Was your GM using minions? It seems that if minions are used for some percentage of the opponents, they of course die in one hit no need to even roll damage. Then the other opponents do take a little longer, but that should even out as a result. Wizards are supposed to be good minon killers, if you haven't been running into a lot of minons, you may be feeling it's uphill for you, because in effect, it is. Kobolds are no longer all "minons". They have tough guys too. If your GM throws all non-minons at you, then yes, you'll be in for a ride.


Some of what you're experiencing may also be your group composition and their choices. Bad choices at later levels do less harm. bad choices at those early levels can have a huge impact on overall performance. You'd know better there though.

Hope some of that is relevant.

 

[keterys]

Combats are designed, on purpose, to last more rounds than 3e. That requires more hit points on critters - otherwise maneuvering, losing a round to a status effect or missing, poor initiative, etc become too critical of a problem.

That kobold dragonshield isn't some shmuck a 1st level character can smack around - he's a champion among kobolds, much as the PCs are.

That said, if you're someone who objects to many of the monsters at 1st level being too tough, I cheerfully encourage you to check out the rules I made for handling that.

 

[Sanzuo]

Pffff... combat encounters are suppose to be tough. I don't know what kind of group likes easy street slaughterfests all the time. But I'm not having fun unless my group is in a cold sweat over a monster that they're facing.

 

[bardolph]

I love kobold dragonshields. Nassty, shifty little buggers. It's horrifying when a Warlock gets flanked by two of these.

 

[Dausuul]

the problem is enemies have too many HP. Kobolds with 30 hp? Ridiculous. You used to kill one with a single swordstroke. Now all kobolds except minions are as tough as PCs?

Translated into 3.X terms:

All kobolds except the ones without PC class levels are as tough as PCs?

I don't see the problem here. The vast majority of kobolds are minions. The non-minions are the leaders, champions, elite guards, assassins, and so forth - the big heroes of kobold society.

 

[Arbitrary]

Things were a little rocky in the first 2-3 encounters but now if I pretty much have to throw in extra monsters. 750 exp worth of dudes against a 3rd level party of five players is a slaughterfest and a -1 or -2 encounter would be absolutely pointless.

I honestly don't really understand the lowest tier of artillery monsters. They are all completely overshadowed by creatures like the Goblin Hexer and Hobgoblin Warcaster.

 

[Sanzuo]

There's a good reason why I ran a short, combat-heavy adventure to get everyone accustomed to the mechanics and fighting before starting my "real" campaign.

I find the game just goes much smoother when everyone knows what they're doing and isn't bogged down by looking up rules constantly.

 

[Jack99]

I just ran part of KotS tonight.

7 players
3 fights (burial ground, outside kobold cave + kobold cave) with 41 (19 of them minions) monsters total

No fight went beyond the 7th round. Total time spent fighting was 3h 15.

So, no, I really do not think combats in 4e take too much time.

 

[s0l0m0n]

I've considered my experience some more, and I think it is not the absolute real-time duration of combat that is longer, but rather the pacing. Big 3e combats on epic level did take up half an evening. However, counting only average rolls, it seems characters are unable to kill themselves using only their encounter powers, save strikers perhaps, and monsters have multiples of PC hitpoints on epic level.

I'm not going into the maths right now, but the point is, 4e combat follows a Bell Curve. It runs up slowly as opponents take up positions, it builds up steam as encounter and daily powers are spent, but withers away into a drawn-out non-finale once you get down to at-wills. You will get down to at-wills, even in an equal-level encounter, because of the massive amount of enemy HP that need to be whittled down. Minions do not seem to offer a solution, as they pose a disproportionately low level of threat and are nothing but an afterthought in the mage's garguantuan AoE (take e.g. Legion's Hold + Spell Accuracy). Effectively, after round 5 or so - unless you're willing to blow all of your dailies as well - 4e combat is roughly the same as 3e: roll-hit-damage-roll-hit-damage ad infinitum.