Combat vs knights in full plate

[Dannyalcatraz]

I've seen the same kind of demoes- there is a bit of a slowdown, but for someone trained and conditioned to wear the armor, its not going to be that noticeable. The real issue with such armor is going to be endurance.

If you look at history, the average soldier has been loaded down with 60-80lbs of gear. They're trained to carry it. Its mass is efficiently distributed. But the guys in plate, unlike some warriors of other cultures, could not drop significant portions of their gear to fight in. Additionally, that armor is not as good at allowing heat to escape as the fighting gear of other areas and eras, which also saps endurance.

 

[Derren]

I've seen the same kind of demoes- there is a bit of a slowdown, but for someone trained and conditioned to wear the armor, its not going to be that noticeable. The real issue with such armor is going to be endurance.

If you look at history, the average soldier has been loaded down with 60-80lbs of gear. They're trained to carry it. Its mass is efficiently distributed. But the guys in plate, unlike some warriors of other cultures, could not drop significant portions of their gear to fight in. Additionally, that armor is not as good at allowing heat to escape as the fighting gear of other areas and eras, which also saps endurance.

A knight carried less weight into battle than a soldier today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc5O6Y-Yeyw

90 pounds or more vs the 50 pounds armor and sword in the video from the museum (minute 35+)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Right, but a modern warrior can drop a lot of that weight in a few seconds. Not an option for the plate armored knight.

In addition, a lot of what the modern warrior carries into battle gets expended and cast off as the battle progresses. His load decreases in mass as he uses his weaponry.

 

[Derren]

Right, but a modern warrior can drop a lot of that weight in a few seconds. Not an option for the plate armored knight.

In addition, a lot of what the modern warrior carries into battle gets expended and cast off as the battle progresses. His load decreases in mass as he uses his weaponry.

What exactly should the soldier drop (watch the video)?
His weapon, his ammunition or parts of his armor? And the only thing which he uses up is his ammunition which still won't drop his carrying load below that of a knight. His vest alone weights as much as plate armor and his weapon is equal (M16) or more (SAW) heavy than a sword/poleaxe.

Soldiers do actually carry even more stuff and here you are right, they can drop that one. Won't make their loads lighter than the equipment of a knight, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w846UcmIo5o

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

His vest alone weights as much as plate armor

That's simply incorrect.

According to researchers at Leeds, Milan, & Aukland, plate, on average, was between 30-50kg.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14203621

In contrast, the Interceptor body armor, E-SAPI plates (10.9 pounds), ESBIs (7.75 pounds), DAPS (5.03 pounds) and with the neck, throat and groin protectors installed the armor weighs in at 33.1 pounds (15 kg).

Add to that, a good portion of a modern soldier's carried mass is in a quickly removable pack. Yes, it contains things like spare clips, etc., but if mobility is needed, those can be abandoned.

 

[Derren]

That's simply incorrect.

According to researchers at Leeds, Milan, & Aukland, plate, on average, was between 30-50kg.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14203621

In contrast, the Interceptor body armor, E-SAPI plates (10.9 pounds), ESBIs (7.75 pounds), DAPS (5.03 pounds) and with the neck, throat and groin protectors installed the armor weighs in at 33.1 pounds (15 kg).

Add to that, a good portion of a modern soldier's carried mass is in a quickly removable pack. Yes, it contains things like spare clips, etc., but if mobility is needed, those can be abandoned.

Ok, you are right. The vest alone doesn't weight as much. But add in the helmet (5-10 pounds), boots and all the other stuff which is covered by plate armor but counted separately on the soldier and you have equal weight. A soldiers weapon usually weights equally as medieval ones or more for the heavy weapons and that is not counting the ammunition. So even when a soldier abandons everything except his armor and weapon he carries an equal load to a knight, not less. And also consider that the weight of modern armor is much less distributed among the body than plate armor.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Not quite- the helmet weighs 3.36lbs, the boots another 2.5 (I have some), and the restaurant clothing, belts, etc. adds another 5-10lbs. That's still 15lbs short of his knightly counterpart.

The knight's weapons add another 5-15 lbs, depending upon what, exactly, he kitted himself out with. A knight going 2hand sword with backup dagger is traveling light. One armed with a sword, mace, dagger and shield is about middle of that range. Only a few would carry more.

In comparison, the M4 carbine weighs just under 7lbs with a full clip; each full clip weighs about .5lbs. Lets call the knight's and the soldier's daggers a wash. Hand grenades weigh 6.5oz each. A loaded handgun and some extra clips adds another 5lbs.

Communications & optics add another 5lbs or so.

Most of the rest of that 90lbs of weight is stuff that can be dropped for later retrieval. Part of this mass is because the modern soldier is expected to operate much further from his primary mode of transport than is the knight (APC vs horse), and for longer periods of time.

So yes, he does carry more mass into battle, but a goodly portion of it is not carried during the battle.

 

[Derren]

Not quite- the helmet weighs 3.36lbs, the boots another 2.5 (I have some), and the restaurant clothing, belts, etc. adds another 5-10lbs. That's still 15lbs short of his knightly counterpart.

The knight's weapons add another 5-15 lbs, depending upon what, exactly, he kitted himself out with. A knight going 2hand sword with backup dagger is traveling light. One armed with a sword, mace, dagger and shield is about middle of that range. Only a few would carry more.

In comparison, the M4 carbine weighs just under 7lbs with a full clip; each full clip weighs about .5lbs. Lets call the knight's and the soldier's daggers a wash. Hand grenades weigh 6.5oz each. A loaded handgun and some extra clips adds another 5lbs.

Communications & optics add another 5lbs or so.

Most of the rest of that 90lbs of weight is stuff that can be dropped for later retrieval. Part of this mass is because the modern soldier is expected to operate much further from his primary mode of transport than is the knight (APC vs horse), and for longer periods of time.

So yes, he does carry more mass into battle, but a goodly portion of it is not carried during the battle.

The weight of the helmet comes from here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKH_M2nPBKE

All clips I found say 90 pound for essentials (armor, weapon, ammo) and usually 130 pound in total when including dropable supply.

 

[Janx]

You are making the classic mistake of mixing up jousting plate armour with actual plate armour used in battle (plate mail). It just doesn't look anything like the way you describe that battlefield.

I don't know if you are speaking from the experience of having tried the real thing on, but I've seen people moving and fighting in the authentic article and believe me - they had no noticeable hindrance to their speed and mobility. As I said, at the royal armouries museum. The real thing.

Along that line, consider the man inside the armor.

As I've been hearing of the jousting league the History channel and such has been airing, there's a new trend to put ex-football players in armor on a horse. People thought they would be too heavy, and too slow.

apparently they were wrong, and football player sized guys are dominating the sport.

Same thing goes for armor back then. You're not going to put a 100 pound weakling in the suit, but a well muscled man who's been training for it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

All clips I found say 90 pound for essentials (armor, weapon, ammo) and usually 130 pound in total when including dropable supply.

I'm getting my info partially from active duty personnel (family on deployment). But I'm also looking up the official weights listed for some of this gear- its easily found if you look by name. (And like I said, some of this stuff I actually own.)

The discrepancy may be due to 2 factors: imprecise weight estimates (in the vids and/or from my family) and that the sources you cite may be out of date and simple differences in the gear we're discussing. Some of the gear, like the helmet, was replaced by lighter stuff. The helmet, for instance, has been replaced- the MICH (a Kevlar helmet currently used by our troops) is only 3.36 pounds for an XL size. But the MICH is not yet universally used.

Ditto the M4 carbine- again, its a relatively recent replacement for M16A2 that was about 1.5lbs heavier. And again, its not universally distributed. And it never will be, since certain branches and subdivision of the military use heavier and lighter weapons than it...sometimes, depending on mission.