Combining Arcana Evolved and D&D 3.5

[catsclaw227]

Combining Arcana Evolved and D&D 3.5

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There may be a thread about this already, but my search is still disabled...

Have any of you combined the use of Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved and D&D 3.5? What classes did you use or eliminate?

If I went with a game work that used all of each book (with some specific mods/rules, noted below), would this work? Magisters and Clerics and Duskblades and Akashics all living in harmony. Are there balance issues?

Here are my noted mods:

* Use AE's take on Alignment and make Detect spells only be able to detect intent or something with the Evil descriptor.
* If you take an AE spell casting class, you use the AE rules. If you take a D&D 3.5 class, you use these rules.

What happens with prestige classes and multi-class combinations? What classes would you eliminate for redundancy sake?

Thanks in advance for all your feedback!

CC

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Combining Arcana Evolved and D&D 3.5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There may be a thread about this already, but my search is still disabled...

Have any of you combined the use of Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved and D&D 3.5? What classes did you use or eliminate?

If I went with a game work that used all of each book (with some specific mods/rules, noted below), would this work? Magisters and Clerics and Duskblades and Akashics all living in harmony. Are there balance issues?

Here are my noted mods:

* Use AE's take on Alignment and make Detect spells only be able to detect intent or something with the Evil descriptor.
* If you take an AE spell casting class, you use the AE rules. If you take a D&D 3.5 class, you use these rules.

What happens with prestige classes and multi-class combinations? What classes would you eliminate for redundancy sake?

Thanks in advance for all your feedback!

CC

I would eliminate all "Mage Blade"-alternatates - Hexblade, Duskblade and all the related Prestige Classes, and just use the AE Mageblade. (This is both for flavour and for balance reason. The Mageblade is probably the best implementation of the mage-fighter concept, and also seems well-balanced with the rest of the classes).
For similar reasons, I would remove all "Swashbuckler" PrCs or Core Classes and use the Unfettered for it.

I don't know if Wizards or Sorcerors will be over- or underpowered compared to Magisters, but I definitely think the Magister will win flavourwise and be more fun to use.

I am not certain that Paladin is still fun if you can be a Champion, but on the other hand, the Paladin Mount gives a unique flavour unavailable to the Champion.

There might be some redundancies when using all the Full BAB classes (Barbarian, Totem Warrior, Fighter, Unfettered, Warmain, Ranger, Paladin and Champion) alongside, but on the other hand, they still each feel and play a bit different.

 

[catsclaw227]

That's interesting you mentioned it. About 30min before I read this I was putting the all the classes together and started crossing out the overlap classes, like the Hexblade, Duskblade and the Paladin. Afterwards I will go over these classes more thoroughly and see if there are notable differences that would make them useful.

How well does using D&D prestige classes work with AE core classes?

 

[Odhanan]

We are using Arcana Evolved and D&D 3.5 side by side. Alignments do exist, but they are not known from the players, unless the character has a specific ability allowing thim/her to know something about it (like the paladin with detect evil). The DM may change alignments of the PCs overtime. The Experience Chart used is the one of AE, for everyone. Everyone gets the extra feat of AE (We were separating XP charts and feats originally, but that became cumbersome, so we ditched the difference and it didn't make a real difference in the game). In almost every case, when a conflict between D&D and AE rules arises, AE wins. We also use all the PrCs of D&D and AE available to us, provided the DM agrees with the choice (mostly, if it makes sense in the game).

If you are a D&D spellcaster, you use D&D spellcasting and spells (including Spell Compendium and other resources). If you are an AE spellcaster, you use AE spellcasting and spells (including Spell Treasury some times, but we haven't used many of its spells yet).

No classes or PrCs were ditched. We are taking classes as different takes on archetypes. They aren't usually "professions" per se, but abstract mechanical representations of what the character is and does. So, you can have some arcane fighters using Mage Blade levels, others using Duskblade levels. You can have Champions fighting alongside Paladins both calling themselves holy warriors of the same God or Principle. This is kind of neat, in fact, because that means that when you meet an NPC, you know his reputation and what he does, you can't surely know what stats or abilities it may or may not have in every case. For instance, a "fallen warrior corrupted by the powers of Darkness" could be a Darkbond, Herald of Annihilation, Evil Cleric, Blackguard, Champion of Darkness or God knows what else.

 

[catsclaw227]

The Experience Chart used is the one of AE, for everyone. Everyone gets the extra feat of AE (We were separating XP charts and feats originally, but that became cumbersome, so we ditched the difference and it didn't make a real difference in the game). In almost every case, when a conflict between D&D and AE rules arises, AE wins.

Thanks! Are there any other house rules you can think of that were created because of actual play with the combined systems?

I am already implementing a feat addition a 1st level. (as well as bonus feats at 5th and 15th, with Humans getting one at 10th too.) Yes, the PCs will be more powerful this way, but I compensate with slightly higher CR encounters.

This is kind of neat, in fact, because that means that when you meet an NPC, you know his reputation and what he does, you can't surely know what stats or abilities it may or may not have in every case. For instance, a "fallen warrior corrupted by the powers of Darkness" could be a Darkbond, Herald of Annihilation, Evil Cleric, Blackguard, Champion of Darkness or God knows what else.

We have always done this too. A PC wouldn't know what "class" or a "hit-point" is as meta-game information, so we have always assumed that NPCs can be any multitude of classes. It makes the meta-game aspect of defeating him better since you aren't sure which of the "usual" tactics to use.

 

[Odhanan]

Thanks! Are there any other house rules you can think of that were created because of actual play with the combined systems?

The alignments too. At the beginning, we didn't play with a alignments. That wasn't a problem because everyone was playing AE characters in fact. But that became sort of annoying, like missing a cool game opportunity, when things like Smite became just adjudicated by the DM after a while. So I re-introduced the alignments, but determined them myself according to the actual way the characters were role-played, and the PCs don't know their alignments. I can change them if they change their RP consistantly.

That keeps the game in line with AE's themes while still allowing alignment-specific D&D abilities to work. As the present Greenbond of our table got bored with her character (which actually happened to another player last year too, which makes me think that there's a problem with the Greenbond: it's too passive a character class for many players), we redesigned the entire character from the ground up to change her into a paladin of nature instead. This is technically a Paladin, but with no mount and additional abilities such as Speak With Spirits and Child of the Green (from Transcendence). And it works admirably.

I am already implementing a feat addition a 1st level. (as well as bonus feats at 5th and 15th, with Humans getting one at 10th too.) Yes, the PCs will be more powerful this way, but I compensate with slightly higher CR encounters.

I actually completely understand this decision. I think D&D/d20 characters probably don't get enough feats, personally. It always feel like you're waiting for the next third level to get the stuff you want, unless you optimize your levelling. Maybe I'll do like Crothian for my next (Ptolus) campaign: Have all characters gain bonus feats every two levels instead of three. Crothian says it works great. That may be the solution (comparatively, I would certainly do it with Star Wars d20. There are just not enough bonus feats to get the characters to feel like SW heroes, IMO, and that gives more flexibility to characters who don't use the Force too, but that's another topic).

The downside to this is that after around 12th level or so, at high levels, you just have everything you want in terms of feats. So there is two sides to the argument really. That depends on the campaign's scope, I guess.

We have always done this too. A PC wouldn't know what "class" or a "hit-point" is as meta-game information, so we have always assumed that NPCs can be any multitude of classes. It makes the meta-game aspect of defeating him better since you aren't sure which of the "usual" tactics to use.

Absolutely!

 

[Dragonhelm]

In terms of redundancies, I would look at a couple of things.

The magister is, in essence, the wizard and sorcerer combined. Personally, I think the spells readied idea works better. So you might consider if you're going to use all three classes or not. Also, compare the flavor of the greenbond (and darkbond?) with the druid and blighter. See if they're different enough or too similar. Likewise, the fighter and warmain have some similarities.

You can use all these options if you wish, but several of the D&D roles have AE counterparts. Whether the inclusion of all these options is redundant or adds more to the game is up to you.

 

[satori01]

I've ran a hybrid game for the last 2 years. I let any and all classes, and allow multi-classing between the two rules set. Unfettered/Paladin/ Knight of the Pale works fine, I can say from personal experience.

I use alignments, but a more adult oriented set, allowing for gray areas. I use Truenames as in AE, and allow all classes to have the bonus Ceremony Feat or Talent at first level.

I use the Feat swapping rules as per AE, and Spell casting classes follow and are limited to the rules from their own books, the only exception being Sorceres which I allow to Spellweave and have d6 hit points.

Other rules I impelmented include: Scrolls no longer have a Divine or Arcane descriptor any more. If the spell on the scroll appears on your spell list you can use it. I also allow near duplicate spells in AE and D&D to be used by the caster as the spell from their own list, ie a scroll with Analyze on it could be used by a Magister as the "Anaylze" spell or by a Wizard as the "Identify" spell.

I also made "Analyze" a complex spell instead of a Exotic spell.

 

[DarkKestral]

I see most fighter/barbarian ideas taken up in the unfettered, warmain, ritual warrior, and totem warrior classes, so I don't see those as too much of a problem, but I might convert over the barbarian to AE, just for the sake of ensuring compatability.

Monks become Oathsworn or ritual warriors.

Wizards and sorcerors become magisters (I'd be personally ok with making INT OR CHA the casting stat for magisters, it just seems reasonable, to allow for the charismatic sorceror type or studious wizard types equally. However, CHA doesn't sound like it would make too many friends compared to INT, just because of the skillpoints)

Clerics and druids would probably become greenbonds, with simple restrictions on the templates that they could take (no corrupt templated spells if you want to keep class abilities, unless you're going darkbond or some appropriate PrC) based on deities and whatnot.

Paladins become champions, as I personally believe champions are much better in flavor and in variety than normal D&D paladins, excepting perhaps UA paladins, which offer that needed variety.

That essentially just leaves the rogue and bard classes, which SORTA are both partially equivalented in the Akashic class. I would probably rebuild them within AE, as I would with the barbarian, just to ensure compatability beyond that.

Halflings become Faen Quicklings, I would probably bump Half-Elves and Half-Orcs up a bit in power, due to the presence of AE Dracha and Litorians as LA+1 races, as Litorians get stats that would make most Half-Orcs drool with envy and without the number of penalties for a basic +1 LA. (I'd take a Litorian's LA over a Half-orc's lack of LA anyday) Gnomes and dwarves might get bumped down a notch in overall power.

After that, you've essentially gotten rid of the PHBI material, and much of the need for a lot of different types of Complete X material, and most of the PHBII isn't needed either. Psionics is gone, the spell system used in AE is so much more flexible that it serves as a nice replacement, (I'm also considering building a spellpoint system that replicates AE's system, so that slots are essentially completely removed for all but for things such as caster level checks) and there's the Mind Witch class and Psionic casting style if you want something similar to d20 psionics. Spells would still need some conversion, but the presence of the AE spell treasury eases that problem for most of the 'classic' spells, and offers some new ones.

All in all, AED&D is an interesting exercise, but not one I particularly would want to do without unifying the ruleset, both to prevent broken combos and to prevent party disparities in power that seem like they will show up both at low and high levels. Due to the drastically altered powercurve in AE, I would hesitate to allow a mixture of rules within my games. I play in a game that IS a mix, but I am getting the feeling the D&D players will possibly soon see why certain combos in AE are perhaps stronger than their D&D counterparts.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Using all of each book, with D&D characters built using D&D races, classes, feats and spells and AE characters using AE races, classes, feats and spells, is what Monte recommends, so it's probably a good way to go!

Personally, I'd go a different path, since I'm a fan of the "less is more" approach. (That said, I'm currently playing Iron Heroes, which has umpteen class options, but...) In my last game (D&D/AE) I did the following:

1) Races: Standard D&D (dwarves, elves, etc.). Obviously, in your campaign, this will be campaign-dependent.

2) Classes:

-Bard (modified to use simple spells and spells with the music descriptor, which is a catch-all for the more "bardic" spells like heroism)
-Cleric (a heavily modified greenbond)
-Druid (a slightly differently (less) modified greenbond)
-Fighter
-Mageblade
-Magister (with D&D spells added to the list; sadly, I did the conversion work BEFORE the easy-peasy Spell Compendium!)
-Ranger (gains simple spells and spells with the plant and animal descriptors)
-Rogue
-Unfettered
-Warmain

The akashic didn't really fit my campaign, and I found Totem Warrior too specific for a base class (totem warriors/animal lords were PrC concepts for my campaign), especially since I brought back in fighters (for archers, which are covered by the hawk totem) and rangers (covered in AE by wolf totem). Basically, I made wild shape and animal aspect abilities either spells or PrC abilities, since they don't manifest until later levels anyway.

2) Feats: AE rules for feats. Metamagic feats all are moved to the Ceremonial category, and converted to the AE model of requiring a laden spell slot plus some limited number of uses per day (for the +3/+4 spell level modifier feats). Summon Familiar (and its improved version) become feats.

3) Spells: The biggest change. Spells gain a huge number of new descriptors, including domain descriptors (for clerics) and various others. Spells can be multiply-laden, allowing casters to play with some crazy combos, but at a great cost.

If I were doing it again, I'd probably ditch the cleric and druid, add back on the greenbond, and make all so-called "priests" members of various classes who just happen to worship, then go the route of oath and miracle spells suggested by Monte and at diamondthrone.com .